1 or 2 thou under bore

[ian45662]

I size my bullets 2 thousands under bore diam on my rifle and accuracy is good. I was wondering what would happen if I made them only 1 thou under if it might improve accuracy. Would it change the point of impact. I would probably get less rounds out before cleaning but I am sure I would be able to make it through a relay wouldnt I? Thanks for your help

[ken chrestman]

Ian;

I have an original Zouave with a RA Hoyt liner and it is tight at the last 6 inches of the muzzle. I get excellent accuracy, but a secret I learned is to put a pea sized amount of Penzoil 707 high temp red wheel bearing grease in the cavity. No other wheel bearing grease will work, try Target's automotive section. This works great, cleans up easy and you can shoot all day (lube outside as usual).

Hope this helps, worked for me .

Ken Chrestman, 7147V

[ian45662]

AHHH an orig zouave!! Maybe one of my goals for the new season. Anyhow I will have to try that out thanks for the tip. What about white lithium grease or JUST the other stuff.

[Greg Ogdan, 11444]

Ian,
Watch out, you're going to start a lube thread again. That could go on forever.
I'm sure others will argue all this, but here are some thoughts. Lube on the outside is usually good. Lube in the cavity is usually good also. If you don't have enough lube, the gun will tell you by progressively loading tighter at the muzzle end. Assuming you have enough lube, .001 undersize will probably shoot more accurately than .002 under.
LUBE MAKES A DIFFERENCE. For instance, my .58 Mississippi likes Crisco in the cavity better than white grease, please don't ask me why, it just is. I also have to fill the cavity and others do not. Again, you must try different lubes and let the musket tell you. and, don't forget, do your testing off the bench.

[Don Dixon]

Ian,

You want your bullets to be sized .002-.001 inches under bore size. In their experiments prior to the adoption of the Model 1855 rifle/rifle musket, the U.S. Army discoverd that having the bullet sized any more than .005 inches under bore size produced significant inaccuracy.

Contrary to your expectations, sizing to .001 inches under bore size, if you absolutely know the size of your bore, will require less cleaning rather than more if you use a good lubricant. Good lubricant softens the powder fouling, and a tight bullet scrapes fouling out of the bore more efficiently. But, I also use Greg Edington's Wilkinson bullets. I would highly recommend fresh MCM lubricant. I lubricate the bullets I shoot several days before a match. If the rounds are not shot then, they are used for team matches. If the ammunition is more than two months old, it is used only for practice. Once the bullets are lubricated, the lube begins to dry out and performs much less efficiently.

You should be able to shoot more than 100 rounds in practice without brushing or cleaning. If you can't, you need better lubricant, assuming that the bore of your arm is in good condition. No bullet and lubrication combination will shoot well if the bore is pitted.

As an example, between August 5, 1863, and May 5, 1866, the British conducted an endurance test on a Pattern 1853 rifle musket. This rifle musket was fired at the rate of 20 rounds per day, for a total of 16,000 rounds, without cleaning. Critical to the issue was proper sizing of the cartridge (a greased paper wrapped bullet in this case) and proper lubricant. How many skirmishers could get a round down the barrel after 100 or 200 rounds?

Don't put anything in the base of a Minie ball. All it does is contaminate the powder on a hot day. No one -- American or European -- did so during the Civil War era. It might be that they knew something. Crisco or white lithium grease are absolutely unsuiltable as lubricant. Having said that, organic lubricants are generally much better than anything that has a petrolium base.

For what it might be worth.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[ian45662]

I could shoot all day with the way it is now and not clean I had just thought that .001 under would make it harder to load but I will give it a try thanks guys

[T. BANNISTER]

What great information this forum provides. I have read many past and present post. Thank you all! I used your information last month to select a Parker Hale enfield as my first C.W. era rifle. I haven't put a round through it yet-still looking for a mold. Don your post sort of settles this issue, but has any one visited this site from Norway SVARTKRUTT.NET(I hope that links works never have tried this before. This above site has an english version and on the left of there home page they have an article about a Lee mold for a 0.568 round (requires a paper patch, and I know now you don't shoot these in competition).
Does any one shoot these under size rounds. Now I'll shut up and listen. Thanks again for all of you and this association.

[Scott Kurki, 12475]

Don,
I have a feeling that this may be getting into the whole lube war thing but if Crisco or white lithium grease are absolutely unsuiltable as lubricant, what would you suggest instead (besides MCM)?

[Don Dixon]

Scott,

Ah, the lube wars. Opinions are like ___, everyone has one.

For muzzle loading firearms:

When I first skirmished in the 1970s, I used Len's Lube. It was perfectly good stuff, so long as it had been freshly applied to the bullet. I didn't understand the "fresh" part in those days. Cost me some matches. I didn't understand why the bullets weren't going where the rifle was pointed when I made it go bang.

When I came back to skirmishing in the mid-1990s, I played with MCM and SPG based upon the recommendations of two people I trusted: Preston Hewitt and Tom Hunger. Both worked, so long as they were freshly applied to the bullet. See my earlier post.

Off the subject of lube, I also use Wilkinson bullets. Much better than Minié balls.

For a reality check, lets talk about what was used in the 1860s by the people who designed the weapons we shoot now.

When the Model 1855 Springfield arms went into series production, the bullets used were lubricated with a mixture of one part beeswax to three parts tallow. By 1861, this was changed to a mix of one part tallow to eight parts beeswax. They put NOTHING in the cavity of the Minié ball.

Prior to, and after, the adoption of the Pattern 1853 rifle musket, the British experimented in detail looking for the best cartridge for use in the Enfield. Initially, they dipped the base of their paper cartridges in a mix of five parts beeswax to one part mutton tallow, heated to 130 degrees Fahrenheit. Later they used pure bees wax on their paper cartridge. While pure beeswax worked on a paper cartridge, we can't use them in the N-SSA, and I don't think pure beeswax would work on a "naked" bullet. But, I've never tried it.

The Confederates used a paper wrapped cartridge which was greased with two parts of “bleached wax” to one part of tallow.

The Austrians lubricated the paper wrapper of the cartridge for their Muster 1854 family of arms with pure mutton tallow.

It might be that they knew what they were doing.

For breach loading/cartridge firearms:

In my second interation as a skirmisher, I initially used SPG in my Henry cartridges, and later in my Model 1859 Sharps infantry rifle. It worked well so long as the lube was fresh. Accuracy deteriorated over time. Now I use Lee Shaver's lube. Its designed for black powder cartridge shooting, and does not deteriorate. I've had small lots of left over Sharps ammunition five or more years old that still shot consistently. But, it contains Moly, so I wouldn't put it any where near my mouth for a muzzle loading firearm.

Revolvers:

Two Wonder Wads. Grease of any sort over the bullet is a modern affectation. My great, great grandfather with the 8th Illinois Cavalry wouldn't have gotten 200 yards down the road in Virginia in July or August before grease would have melted and run out of the chambers and into his holster. The Wonder Wads and a properly fitted bullet provide a more than adequate level of safety and lubrication. Fire will not get around them. In the WAH they used greased felt or leather wads when they had to load loose powder and ball. No one used grease over the bullets.

For what it is worth.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[Don Dixon]

Mr. Bannister,

When the British adopted the Pattern 1853 rifle musket, they used a Prichett bullet with a diameter of .568 inches. The Lee mould may duplicate that bullet, but I'm not familiar ith it. The Prichett bullet diameter was reduced to .550 inches in February 1859. In either case they used a greased paper cartridge wrapper to take up the windage in the barrel.

Since we can't shoot them in the N-SSA, I've never played with paper patching the Prichett bullet. I did play with paper patching Wilkinson bullets for an original Muster 1854 Austro-Hungarian Jaeger rifle I own. I used MCM to lubricate the patches. At the time, I didn't know the Austrians had used pure mutton tallow.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[Scott Kurki, 12475]

I have been using the lube from Back Creek Gun Shop. I have no idea what is in it. I works okay for me but I do have to clean in between relays or else I have to start pounding bullets.

I tried SPG but honestly, I only tried 1 stick of it which was not enough to really try it out. It did seem to work well. I read that an analysis of SPG reported it to be cotton seed oil and beeswax, so not Crisco but still not tallow either.

I bought some beeswax and was just going to go the Crisco and beeswax way as many of my team mates do with pretty good success. But that does not mean that I am not open to trying other formula's. I am looking for the NRA 50/50 formula now to see what that is.

[J Weber 4114V]

Time for new thread

[Scott Kurki, 12475]

I found the NRA 50/50 lube formula. It is 50% beeswax and 50% Alox so not much help there.

[Lee Hoffecker]

Where can you get Alox? I have heard that the company does not make it any more.

Lee

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

Lee Precision still offers a product called "Liquid Alox" but this is marketed for modern cast bullets fired with smokeless powder. The primary purpose of lube for black powder shooting is to keep the fouling soft. Hard bullet lubes, to include Alox, do not serve this function very well. Having inherited a couple of bottles of Liquid Alox, I have used it only to thicken the Crisco I put over the bullets in my Remington revolver. Don Dixon correctly notes this is a modern practice that serves to deter chain fires and keep barrel fouling soft to sustain accuracy.
Jim Burgess, 15th CVI