Flintlocks

[jonk]

I confess, one gun I always wanted to add to my collection was/is a military flintlock smoothbore. In that goal, I'd probably want to get one that is N-SSA legal. Maybe i'd never shoot it in a match. Maybe I might, if I get good with it. But why get one that wouldn't be skirmish legal?

As such, I'm at a bit of a crossroads. Part of me would like an original 1816 unconverted gun, as it would of course be legal for N-SSA use. Part of me really likes the history of the Brown Bess, even if it would mean it being a repro.

I guess what I'm asking then, is:
1. What period flinters were used in the Civil War, that can still be had at a price that isn't several thousand dollars, besides the 1816, and are new enough that they avoid the 1816 cut off?
2. If I went the repro route, there are a number that are approved, but what are your experiences with any of them?

Not something I plan on pulling the trigger on soon (forgive the pun) but just something to keep in mind.

[Don Dixon]

Between 1 April and 13 June 1861 Virginia made large issues of arms to Virginia and Confederate troops from the Richmond Armory. According to the notes made by the officials making the issues to individual units, "700 English flintlock muskets" were issued. Since they were issued from pre-war stocks held by Virginia, I don't know what they could have been other than Brown Bess muskets. Talk to John Holland. I can provide supporting citations if he questions the matter.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[John Holland]

The Small Arms Committee has issued numerous Individual Approval Cards for Brown Bess Muskets, the majority of which have been Pedersoli and Miroku made arms. The SAC will not issue a card for any of the Indian made imports.

[jonk]

The Small Arms Committee has issued numerous Individual Approval Cards for Brown Bess Muskets, the majority of which have been Pedersoli and Miroku made arms. The SAC will not issue a card for any of the Indian made imports.

I knew about the prohibition on Indian made guns. Besides being a bit iffy on quality control, I would imagine that some are out of spec as well.

Question: I know there were a lot of Brown Bess musket models. Which one(s) are approved for N-SSA use?

[Curt]

Hallo!

On the history side... in brief...

Britain had gone into the Rev War with mostly older P1742 and P1756 Long Land Pattern muskets (modern hobby and collector '"1st Model Brown Bess"), and with the 1768/69ish New Short Land Pattern (hobby and collector "2nd Model Brown Bess").

These had also been a heavy staple of American rebel arms until the French started giving or selling their older M1763/66/68 (hobby and collector "Charleville") muskets which the U.S. came to prefer and later copied with the evolution starting with the Model 1795 Springfield.

Meanwhile the British evolved their muskets beginning with the India Pattern in about 1793 (hobby and collector
3rd Pattern Brown Bess) overlapping with the New Land Pattern (hobby and collector "4th Model Brown Bess"). When the percussion musket, the P1842, came out Britain sold off a ton of "3rd and 4th Models" numbers going to Mexico and some to CS and US agents. Numbers came into US inventories as Mex War captures.

By and large, avoiding Indian wall-hangers and custom-builts... mass produced repro's tend to be the British New Short Land Pattern BKA 2nd Model Bess or the French "M1763 Charleville." Without checking for SAC approvals, Pedersoli makes a M1795 Springfield.

Again, being brief...

Curt

[Smokin' Joe]

I'm in the early process of building a series of Virginia Manufactory Artillery Muskets, both in flint and percussion. There are few things that need to happen first, but consider a 36inch long barrel vs 42-44 inch lengths for a flintlock arm.

[John Holland]

Smokin' Joe is working closely with the Small Arms Committee to build these unique arms correctly and have them approved the first time they are submitted. We thank him for that!

John Holland
Small Arms Staff Officer

[jonk]

I'm in the early process of building a series of Virginia Manufactory Artillery Muskets, both in flint and percussion. There are few things that need to happen first, but consider a 36inch long barrel vs 42-44 inch lengths for a flintlock arm.

Sounds like an interesting project!

As to what Curt said, it would sound like (so far as the Bess is concerned) that the 3rd or 4th model would be most likely to be Civil War era appropriate, which is to say India or New Land pattern. That said, given no European imports are available in those models, I presume the SAC would/is approving the 2nd models that Pedersoli and so on ARE making.

I really might go with an original 1816 flintlock when the time comes. Because, I have always held to the idea: why by a repro when you can get an original at similar price? That held sway over me when I got my 42, Potsdam, and 16, all for a $1k or under, and the same principle probably applies here... you can still get an un-messed with flintlock 16 for around the price (maybe a tad more) that you could a repro.

[Curt]

Hallo!

95% of my reference library is boxed up still for never-ending house remodeling....

IIRC, rear line, low priority, Mexican militia type infantry were armed with NSLP ("2nd Model Bess") muskets in the 1830's.

Plus there is always the possibility that someone took their grandfather's Rev War "2nd Model" down from the attic and donated it to a Confederate arms drive in 1861.

:) :)

Seriously.... the lack of mass-produced, commercially available (read as Italian) repro's (or even a decent M1822 aka M1816) is a "hindrance" to the expansion of flintlock competition.

And with the rise of prices, it may be easier and cheaper up to a point (depending on conversion)... to commit the sin and sacrilege of reconverting and/or restoring original altered to percussion M1822 or M1835 back to flint.

Hey Rob Miller....! You still have my M1822 lock parts from such an effort from 1986! :) :)

Curt

[R. McAuley 3014V]

I believe this was cited in Ross' Texas Brigade (1893 by Victor Rose, MD), when some of the early Texas units received arms issued by the State of Texas, they ranged from U.S. muskets to guns that were taken from De Cos at the battle of Bexar (San Antonio) in December 1835. One of these included a old Brown Bess that was 100 years old. I don't rightly recall now if it was meant for 1835 or 1861?

[gemmer]

I believe this was cited in Ross' Texas Brigade (1893 by Victor Rose, MD), when some of the early Texas units received arms issued by the State of Texas, they ranged from U.S. muskets to guns that were taken from De Cos at the battle of Bexar (San Antonio) in December 1835. One of these included a old Brown Bess that was 100 years old. I don't rightly recall now if it was meant for 1835 or 1861?

Assuming that Cos' muskets wound up with the Alamo defenders, how would have Texas acquired them again after the Alamo fell?

[Grayrock Volunteer]

Assuming that Cos' muskets wound up with the Alamo defenders, how would have Texas acquired them again after the Alamo fell?

It is my understanding that Cos' command retained their arms after their surrender at Bexar. I would assume that any arms reportedly from his command would have been captured at San Jacinto.

I would be interested to see a complete inventory of arms captured at San Antonio (1861), or say an 1860 storekeepers report should someone know where a copy may be found.


Cheers,
Garrett

[Curt]

Hallo!

It would!

Sadly, I would expect or predict a disappointment as so many entries, ledgers, and descriptions fall victim to a really loose jargon as just " .75 British muskets" or 'Tower" muskets.

Curt

[Jim Leinicke 7368V]

Hallo!

It would!

Sadly, I would expect or predict a disappointment as so many entries, ledgers, and descriptions fall victim to a really loose jargon as just " .75 British muskets" or 'Tower" muskets.

Curt

Another generic term in the 1860s was "King's arm" or "Queen's arm", meaning just about any old British flintlock. Brit muskets captured in Mexico were India Pattern arms, for which there are no suitable replicas. I have around here a copy of a manuscript memoir by a Virginia soldier named John Blue of Romney. In April, 1861, he and other members of his militia company (At least one of whom was a free black man) armed themselves with British muskets "captured during the Revolution" that were stored in the attic of a country church near Romney. The company then took to the hills ahead of invading Federals and spent a few days at a country blacksmith shop where the flintlocks were percussioned, no doubt crudely. These muskets would have been either Long Land or Short Land Brown Bess muskets.
Finally, I have photos of various relatives of mine who were enlisted in the Pulaski Guard, a company of the 4th Virginia, taken in 1861 before 1st Manassas. They appear to be armed with M1822 flintlocks. One of them sent an 1855 HF rifle home as a souvenir after the battle, explaining that it was a great gun but they had no ammo for such a weapon.
Jim Leinicke
114th Illinois

[John Holland]

Thank you, Jim, great history!