Are brass shells legal to skirmish?

[bobanderson]

Saw this listing on the Wanted/For Sale page - http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthread.php/13634-63-Pedersoli-Sharps

Aside from what I think would be extraction problems, are these brass shells allowed in competition? Are there any advantages or disadvantages? For instance, if the brass shell just drops out, that might be a pretty quick way to cycle rounds in a match. Would an extraction tool be allowed?

Always looking to learn.

[Hal]

I'm looking forward to the answer to this question. I'm not sure I see an advantage during shooting. Even if they DO just fall out, I can't see it being quicker than not having to extract anything at all as in the case of paper cartridges. I see the real advantage coming at the time of making up cartridges. I can see that being easier than rolling tubes and gluing/tying them to bullets. But then again, they would be EXPENSIVE at the outset and you have to clean them up after you shoot them.

[John Holland]

This question was addressed when the brass adapter tubes first became available some years ago. The answer is "Yes, brass tubes are allowed to be used in the percussion Sharps carbines and Rifles." The downside is having to extract the tube, sometimes with difficulty. When using paper wrapped cartridges the Sharps is the fastest breech loading arm on the line.

[Fred Jr]

As John said the disadvantage of the brass tubes would be removing them after firing. Loading for the team matches is quicker than any other firearm that we use. Open, load and shoot. Now if I could just get the damn thing to sit still when I am trying to aim, I would have a much higher hit time!!!!!!. With the switch to Charlie Tubes making rounds is a lot easier. I have been shooting a Shiloh Sharps for at least 30 years and I will never change!

[Maillemaker]

I may be mis-remembering but in reading the volume of Round Ball to Rimfire about various breech loading firearms some of them required a metal hook which would be inserted into the flash hole of the brass to manually extract it from the chamber.

I've read of people who use these brass cartridges in sharps and from what I read the users drove them out from the muzzle end using a cleaning rod. It's pretty much a convenience for hunting where you are only going to have one shot and reloading speed is not paramount.

As John pointed out the beauty of the paper cartridge in the sharps is that it is a combustible cartridge so there is nothing to extract. You ram it home, fire it, and then ram the next one in behind it. I haven't used mine in a skirmish yet but I'm already planning on bringing extra ammo that my usual 100 rounds because I think I will be able to get off 15-20 shots in 5 minutes.

Steve

[gemmer]

My understanding is that the Pedersoli case mouths are made to match the base of the Pedersoli ringtail which is pretty heavy, around 525gr. The base is also wider than the base on a Moose ringtail.

[Maillemaker]

I shoot the Pedersoli USA 317-541 in my Pedersoli 1859 Sharps. It weighs about 535 grains. The end ring is about .5" in diameter, which makes it convenient for rolling cartridges as you can use a .5" diameter dowel for the former.

Using flush-end paper cartridges and this bullet I can hold a maximum charge of about 62 grains 3F.

Steve

[jonk]

Just on the merits of these, I can't imagine that the case swells enough to seal to the chamber like a regular cartridge gun would. Being the case, the breech block and gas check plate and whatever that nipple is in the face of the gas plate are going to take a hell of a lot of punishment.

I could see an easy modification to the breech plate to allow these to be used with ease, so they protrude slightly from the chamber, but then the gun would not be as issued any longer.

Otherwise, I'd not see a reason to bother with them, other than as mentioned, hunting when extraction isn't an issue.

[Fred Jr]

Hi Steve, can I ask why you are using 62g of 3F?

[ms3635v]

The Gallager was issued with a tool to extract the fired cartridge case. Unfortunately, many of these tools were lost.

[Maillemaker]

Hi Steve, can I ask why you are using 62g of 3F?

I'm not. I just stated the maximum charge possible with a .5" ID tube and this bullet in a Pedersoli.

I use 45 grains 3F.

Steve

[Fred Jr]

That's better Steve! I use 40 in my Shiloh. I just wondered why!

Fred

[Maillemaker]

That's better Steve! I use 40 in my Shiloh. I just wondered why!

Yeah I did a full load workup from like 30 grains up to 60. 45-50 grains did the best group.

I hear other folks with shorter bullets or longer chambers and such able to put 80 or even 100 grains of powder behind their bullets. I don't know why you'd want to do that but anyway. I don't know what historical Sharps accommodated for powder charge. They basically "filled 'em to the brim".

Steve

[Dave Fox]

Some sources indicate wartime Sharps .52 calibre linen cartridges were charged with 65 grains of musket powder.

[Maillemaker]

Thanks, Dave!

Steve