Big frame Ballard information

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Like John Holland has said, no one has been given production approval to build a big frame 56-56 Ballard rifle or carbine. Yes, big frame Ballards can be shot on the line in the Breech Loader 2 Matches. These are originals, not reproductions. They are being shot in their original configuration using an offset primer or have been modified and given a SAC card using an approved centerfire conversion. Historical note: Only a few big frame Ballard carbines were approved and accepted by the US Government, a little over 100. These few are marked Dwight & Chapin and have an acceptance stamp letter D on the frame. I own one. All the rest were rebuilt, remarked, and have mixed numbers and sold to the State of Kentucky. The total production of the big frames is believed to be less than 2000 and most were carbines, not rifles. The highest serial number I have personally seen is in the 1600's. Also just a coincidence is that the .54 cal Mississippi barrels bore is within a few ten thousands of an inch of the Ballards 56-56 bore. I only know a little about these, others I am sure know more.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

The frames on the Ballards that I have seen were iron and not very sturdy. Most of us shoot light loads in our rifles and carbines to avoid cracking the frames. A number of shooters with heavier loads have cracked their frames. Considering that I shoot around 35 grains of 2f in my Spencer 56-50 cases, I was wondering how the large frame Ballards hold up with this kind of a load? Were the frames significantly beefier than the ones in smaller caliber Ballards such as the 44 and 46 rimmfire?

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

The big frame Ballards are 56-56 not 56-50. The bullet is really close to the same diameter as the cases outside diameter. The 56-50 case mouth tapers down at its mouth. I have never heard of a big framed Ballard that was cracked. Not that they haven't, I have never seen one. At least 30% of the all the small frame Ballard originals I have seen are cracked and these are ones no one ever skirmished with. Look at the following collector sites to see just how different the frames sizes are: https://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=1253&cat=0&page=1 & https://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=1510&cat=0&page=1

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, guys:

Yes, I goofed on the 56-50 aspect. Thanks for setting me straight and sharing, Bruce. That aspect can be managed by Larry since only the receiver and some action parts have been roughed-out.

All I am attempting to do is to have Larry Romano make a conforming, SAC approvable large frame Ballard rifle in 50 caliber. Guess the devil is in the details.

I have experience with "cast" frame Ballards and saw a few let go ON THE LINE at ASSRA matches in the early '70's and into the '80's. Two had Barry Darr 12L14 steel barrels in 32-40 caliber. Documented use of reduced charges of SMOKELESS ringed chambers and opened other rifle receiver TOPs. I would be nervous using an original, even with straight black powder loads because they are to me, irreplaceable collectors pieces.

So..... Larry's use of properly hardened 8620 alloy steel in the receiver and 4140 in the barrel seem to me, at least, a reasonable way to solve that problem. Safety first.

Most respectfully,

Kevin Tinny

[Carolina Reb]

Jim, I ended up making a 0.558" mold for my rifle, regular Spencer 56-56 bullets were too small. They were lucky to hit the backstop. My pet load is 25gr. of GOEX CTG in cut down 50-70 cases, with card wads. Unlike a Spencer, the rims do not have to be turned to 0.65" to chamber (at least not in my Ballard). The frame is iron, but pretty hefty. I think the main problem with all pre-Marlin Ballards is the sharp corners in the frame cutouts. If I was reproducing them, I would absolutely radius those corners. They are major stress risers in a very critical area, and cast iron doesn't like stress risers.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Kevin, you said,

"Yes, I goofed on the 56-50 aspect. Thanks for setting me straight and sharing, Bruce. That aspect can be managed by Larry since only the receiver and some action parts have been roughed-out. All I am attempting to do is to have Larry Romano make a conforming, SAC approvable large frame Ballard rifle in 50 caliber. Guess the devil is in the details. "

Kevin, I am trying to help & understand your project, asking the following questions. It's good you are using modern materials. Did you look at the links I shared so everyone can see the huge difference in the sizes of the frames? The original Ballards you have seen shooting at black powder silhouette matches and the modern reproductions made by others are all based on the small frame Ballard. No small frame or big frame carbines or rifles will ever be N-ssa approvable in 50 caliber. The only calibers the Ballards were made in during the Civil War was .44, .46 & .56. The only caliber the big frame Ballard was ever made in is .56 .............. not .50. Has Larry worked with John Holland to get the specifications he needs to correctly reproduce a Ballard big frame in .56 caliber? Has he contacted John so he can get it N-ssa approved? I have seen that it works so much better when the N-ssa and manufacturer work together. I have never seen Larry display a big frame Ballard and didn't know he owned one. Did you give Larry an original big frame model rifle to duplicate or did he already have one? I am always here to help if necessary. Regards, Bruce

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, again Bruce:

Wow. Am impressed with your base of knowledge on Ballard rifles.

I need your help. So that I do not make a costly mistake, would you please provide me with the large frame 56-56 Ballard rifle barrel's outside diameters at the receiver and muzzle?

Many thanks,

Kevin Tinny

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

I have been selling off my collection due to health issues. The big frame rifle is one of those i no longer have. I will try and locate one to give you that information. I will send you my phone number by PM so we can talk more.

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, Bruce:

Received your PM w telephone number and left my thanks and number on your voicemail.
If you shot with the Washtenaw Club or at Greenfield Village, we had/ have many of the same friends.

Regards,
Kevin Tinny

[Carolina Reb]

Here you go Kevin,

Muzzle: 0.815"
Breech: 1.135"
Back edge of rear Sight dovetail 1.125" from front of receiver.
Sight base is the same as a Spencer, but the ladder is unique.

Measurements from rifle sn 888.

[Kevin Tinny]

Wow and thanks, Tony:

Nice touch and in time for Christmas. Thanks for going above and beyond.

The rear sight on the 1855 "monkey tail" Joselyn might be the correct one. There is an auction photo of one. Will PM it to you. Not sure how to attach it here. Will await your review of the photo and then share your info with John Holland.

All the best,

Kevin Tinny

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Kevin, Will call later today. I am a member of the Washtenaw club. I helped build the covered area on the black powder range. Very few of the original Pioneers / Greenfield Village era left but there are some. Most active members are also N-ssa today.

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks for the helpful telephone call, Bruce:

Tony Beck emailed me that he has an original of this style and believes that John Holland took its measurements. He said his had a broken rear sight ladder so he improvised one from a Spfld M-1868, which is almost identical and 1.75" high. He also said the correct rear sight is very similar to the one on a 1855 Joslyn "monkey tail", a clear photo of which can be Googled for James Julia 1855 Joslyn.

Larry said he had an original, from which he took measurements. It is identical to the one pictured at the beginning of chapter 3 in DUTCHER, as #1377. Larry indicated that he can reproduce the correct 56-56 bore measurements shared by Tony, namely: bore of .540" and groove diameter of .558". Beck's has a five L&G, GAIN twist barrel. I understand that the number of lands and grooves can be 6 or 8 and that straight twist, not gain twist is ok.

John sent me measurements and other very helpful SAC information.

It is a wonderful experience to have all of you back there on the pedals keeping me out of a ditch.
Looking forward to your thoughts. All the best.

Merry Christmas,

Kevin Tinny

[Jack C., 69th NY]

Can anyone who has a large frame Ballard rifle, please post any photographs that you might have? Even a verbal description without a photo would be helpful. Two different Ballard books show two different sights. Two leaf carbine sights are shown to exist on large frame rifles as well as the Spencer-like sight. More info is needed to determine what the original rear sight was/is.

Kevin, thank you for bringing up the large frame Ballard topic and thanks to Bruce for carrying the ball. :D

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

Jack, there is currently a Ballard in that caliber for sale on Gunbroker.... and there are a bunch of pics

[Kevin Tinny]

Tx, Joe:

Saw a 46 rim fire, but not a 56-56. Did I miss one, please?

Regards,

Kevin Tinny

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Kevin, Larry should be building a big frame Ballard like the one shown on page 31 ( picture 3-1 ) of Ducthers Ballard book. I had one like it. After looking more at his book I do remember that the rear sight is indeed like the one pictured on page 34 ( picture 3-5 ) a Spencer derivative, it is not exactly the same as a Spencer. For those interested his book on page 36 ( picture 3-8 ) has a great picture showing a comparison on how different the small frame rifle is from the large frame. The top being the large frame, the lower one the small frame, which we see most in the N-ssa.

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, again, Bruce:

Those photo's are the ones Larry indicated matched his and that, together with the measurements shared by John, will be followed in 56-56. Big help.

One issue remains, please:
I have seen at least one with a (clearly) color cased receiver on an auction website. While commentary in Dutcher indicates blued, most such receivers have a history of being refinished.
I have not seen CW era receivers that were not originally color cased, probably for strength.
And lots of fittings also appear to have been case colored.

So..... might mine "pass" if color cased?
Hate to build this with a blued frame and omit the color case strength/wear resistance. Thanks.

Respectfully,
Kevin Tinny

[John Holland]

Kevin - Surface finish or coloring, i.e. case hardening/coloring, blued, browned, or bright, is not an issue with the Small Arms Committee as far as being approved is concerned.i

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, John:

Been a bit apprehensive over the question. Thanks for a fast answer.

That's the best Christmas present I could have hoped for!

Kevin Tinny

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Kevin, I have had several 90% guns that I believe had original finish, all had a barrel and receiver colored dark blue I believe it was because the of cast material they used. It would personally be a very hard decision for me personally not to do case coloring on a new one made of modern steels. Good luck making that decision.

[Carolina Reb]

Kevin, here's a shot of mine. I don't think it was color cased. However, this is one of the rifles that was completed by Ball & Williams, so it has been refinished at least once. The other scan is from Dutcher's book showing the correct sight.

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, Tony and Bruce:

Your input is much appreciated. With John's coloration / finish information in mind, I will ask Larry to color-case all but the barrel and sights. Some internals will be hardened S-7. He has the black walnut stock wood in hand.

May be too nice to shoot. Haha.

Merry Christmas

Kevin Tinny

[Carolina Reb]

Please post pictures when it's done!

[Jim Leinicke 7368V]

for what it is worth, the Illinois Military Museum has a collection of arms captured at Macon Arsenal in 1865 and shipped by the 98th Illinois to Springfield for display. One of these is a .56-.56 big frame Ballard Rifle that was found in the office of the armory superintendent. Like most of the captured arms from Macon, it was a battlefield salvage gun that had been repaired at the arsenal. The damaged barrel had been shortened an inch or so and the front sight and forestock set back to match. The ladder back sight had been altered to a simple two-leaf sight for 100 and 200 yards. Really a neat, nice handling rifle. Would love to shoot one.
Jim Leinicke
7368V