New guy with Enfield load quivquestion

[desmobob]

Hello everyone,

I'm not an N-SSA member, but an avid shooter and a person who appreciates the shared knowledge of specialty forums. I figured this was a good place to come with questions on a Civil War rifled musket.

I just received delivery of a new Pedersoli 3-band Enfield. It has a 1:78" rifling twist and a .577" bore. With it, I purchased some .575" diameter Minie balls (from Dixie Gun Works). I have not slugged the rifle's bore or sized the minies. They are a snug fit in the bore but load easily.

I brought the Enfield to the range today to get acquainted. We have not yet become friends. :( I initially tried a load of 50gr. (equivalent by volume) of Pyrodex RS Select under the minie, which was lubed with Thompson/Center Bore Butter. I did not hit the target at 50 yards. I put up a target at 25 yards and found the rifle shoots a full foot higher than point of aim. I can deal with that. But I was unable to keep shots on the target at 50 and 100 yards. When I did hit the paper, the bullets were key-holing.

I though maybe my powder charge was not enough to expand the skirt of the minie, so I gradually increased the load to 80gr. No luck. I then tried switching to a load using Triple-7 black powder substitute, which is a FFFG equivalent (the Pyrodex I used in my initial loads is a FFG equivalent). The minies were still tumbling.

I just went back to Dixie Gun Works' web site and found there were some very negative reviews of these minies...
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_99_311_313&products_id=1367 One guy mentioned the lead was too hard and another said it "wasn't hard to get them to tumble." I'm thinking I might have bought a bunch of lousy minie balls.

Can anyone recommend a good source of minies that work well in the Pedersoli 3-band Enfield? Is my starting load data reasonable? In my web searching, it seems that a lot of folks recommend a load of around 50gr of powder for good accuracy with these Enfield repros.

Thanks for any tips,
Bob

[Maillemaker]

Hi Bob,

I also had a Pedersoli 3-band Enfield; I just traded it for a Pedersoli 1859 Sharps Carbine. :)

However, I found the Enfield to be a good shooter. I had not found a load that was better than what I am getting out of my Euroarms Enfield with Whitacre competition barrel, though. If you watch CapNBall's YouTube video on this gun you can see he is getting fantastic groups using a heavy bullet. My Whitacre barrel (1:72 twist with progressive depth rifling) does extremely well (clover-leaf holes at 50 yards) with both the RCBS-Hodgdon (48 grains 3F Goex) and the Moose Wilkinson 577-420 (50 grains 3F Goex). I believe the Pedersoli will do better with a heavier, traditional style Minie (that is what CapNBall used). This is going to probably require more powder. So I kept my Pedersoli Enfield as a wall hanger since while I could get it to shoot well, it would take more powder and lead than my Whitacre barrel requires to do the same thing.

I never glass-bedded my Pedersoli; my Euroarms is.

The way I determine the size bullet to use is I size up in .001" increments until the bullet does not fit. I then step down to the next smallest bullet and use that. My Pedersoli 3-band and 2-band like .578 bullets.

You will find that most of us here cast our own bullets as it is simply not economically feasible to buy them in the quantities that we shoot them. Your link says those bullets are made of pure lead, and this is a necessity for any kind of expanding bullet - use hard lead and the bullet won't expand to take up the rifling.

Out of the box, every single reproduction arm I have ever bought shoots high. The Pedersoli 3-bander was no exception. Most N-SSA skirmishers install taller front sights because of this. This may limit your ability to install a bayonet unless you cut a slit in your bayonet ring to accommodate it.

None of us use Pyrodex very much as the N-SSA does not allow it.

You will have to experiment and conduct load workups to see what works for you for any given bullet. I would recommend trying a longer, heavier bullet like one of the traditional style minies. Make sure they are pure lead. Size to .001" under what won't fit. Then do load workups from 40 grains 3F to 60 grains 3F in 5-grain increments. When you find your best grouping load, you can hunt around that in 2-grain increments to see if you can fine-tune.

Also you didn't mention lube. I use 50/50 beeswax/Crisco. Lots of people swear by different lubes; I don't think it matters as much as consistency of load. You have to find the combination that works and then stick to it.

For competition, for myself personally, I expect a competition gun to shoot clover-leafs off a bench at 50 yards.

Steve

[Mike McDaniel]

Yup. The general N-SSA gouge is a pure lead Minie, .001 below bore diameter, in front of ~45 grains of 3F black powder. Forget the substitutes. Lubes are a debate.

[CAGerringer]

Bob,
When I was trying to figure out what bullet my musket liked, I bought 20 bullets each in 6 or seven different styles from a guy named Pat Kaboskey. He has a company that sells pre-made, pre-lubed, pre-sized minies in probably 50 different styles, in any size. His email address is cwbulletman@aol.com. You can call him at 262 363-4625. When you get bullets from him, you are guaranteed pure lead...which is the paramount requirement in ever getting any accuracy.
Have fun,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[Lou Lou Lou]

Paul Weber also supplies minies

[desmobob]

Thanks for the help, everyone.

I checked my "pure lead" minies from DGW and they are HARD and obviously an alloy. I will melt them down and cast bullets for one of my modern pistol calibers. I picked up both of the Lee molds for .577 minies and have some pure lead on the way.

As for the sights on the Pedersoli 3-band, I've read plenty of reports of them shooting high. I was very surprised that in the excellent CapNBall video on that same rifle, he made no mention of the POI being high. He even points out his point of aim on the targets and his groups are just a little bit above it. The next time I shoot the rifle, I'll try holding the front sight post at the very bottom of the rear sight's "V" and see where that puts me. And I'll start looking for a suitable piece of metal to make a sight extension with. If I'm happy enough with the way the rifle shoots, I'll search out a reliable gunsmith and have a dovetail cut for a new front sight.

I got really fiscally irresponsible today and ordered both the Pedersoli bullet sizer and bullet greaser. It's a shame they don't have a US distributor with a modern website and ordering system. That bullet greaser sure looks like a neat item. I hope it's as convenient as it looks in CapNBall's video.

Thanks again for the help; I appreciate it.

Have a happy Thanksgiving,
Bob

[Maillemaker]

I checked my "pure lead" minies from DGW and they are HARD and obviously an alloy.

If you are sure they are hard, you probably ought to let DGW know. They are a pretty good outfit and I'm sure they would not knowingly sell them if they were not pure lead. Probably some mix-up from their supplier.


As for the sights on the Pedersoli 3-band, I've read plenty of reports of them shooting high. I was very surprised that in the excellent CapNBall video on that same rifle, he made no mention of the POI being high. He even points out his point of aim on the targets and his groups are just a little bit above it. The next time I shoot the rifle, I'll try holding the front sight post at the very bottom of the rear sight's "V" and see where that puts me.

Yeah, I tried holding with the tip of the front sight down in the bottom of the V and it still shot high.

You'll notice in Capnball's vide he is shooting a 648 grain bullet. That's freaking massive. It could be that with such a massive bullet you get enough drop to bring it into the zone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3el1FGIu6s4


I got really fiscally irresponsible today and ordered both the Pedersoli bullet sizer and bullet greaser. It's a shame they don't have a US distributor with a modern website and ordering system.

I totally agree, and I've been pestering them about that. I've even offered to set up the web site for them if they will find some way to drop-ship orders as I don't have the capital to buy inventory. But they absolutely need to either get a modern distributor with a modern website that has a full product line offering or they need to do it themselves. "The" supposed Pedersoli Dealer is Flintlock's Etc, and if you go to their web site it literally says to mail in $12 for a catalog as if it was 1985 or something.

There are several Pedersoli parts I would like to buy for my Pedersoli P58 but there is simply no place to buy them.

If they'd give me a catalog and a week I could build the web site for them.

I have found that in this genre of hobby - black powder shooting - a lot of the merchants that cater to it are very behind the times in having an up-to-date web presence or any web presence at all. A lot of the "big names" in our hobby have very primitive web sites and many don't even accept credit cards. With services like PayPal and Square anyone can do it these days.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Back in 1977 when the first Nathan Bedford Forrest skirmish was held at Union City, one of my team members who lived in Winchester flew in to Memphis and drove up to attend. Unable to bring any ammo on the flight, he bought some mines from Dixie Gun Works and sat in the motel the night before the skirmish began on Saturday, sizing and loading his ammo. He had bought a bullet starter that Dixie marketed as "indestructible" but which shattered after having driven some 20 of the minies through the sizing die with a mallet. We likewise concluded that the minies bought from Dixie were hard lead, and made the comment to Turner Kirkland about our concerns not that I now recall the outcome. They may have been cast using wheel weights which is usually a 95/5 alloy lead and antimony, so do beware that any bullets you buy already cast should be as near pure lead as you can get unless you specifically desire hard lead bullets. But you may want to invest in some sizing dies like George Gomf makes that will have 7/8 x14 threads to fit most conventional loading presses or turret press. I have some that will size in progression from .577 to .575, just to ensure that I have .576 for my Enfield and .575 for my M-1855 Rifle.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii305/rmac1023/TMAG_zps9f3936fd.jpg

[Smosin]

I have a Pedersoli 3 band that I bought new in 2013. It shoots to point of aim at 50 yards with a 415 grain hb-swc and 45 grains of graf 3fg; it shoots to point of aim -100 yards with several different loads, including Lyman os and ns miniés at 55 grains of 3fg, and a punishing 570 grain Pritchett with 68 grains of 3fg.
The technique of aiming that straight-stocked rifle musket requires a different cheek-weld and hold than a Parker Hale 3 band with a more friendly stock drop, which I also shoot, btw, and perhaps that's why shooting too high can be easy to do.

[Smosin]

I have a Pedersoli 3 band that I bought new in 2013. It shoots to point of aim at 50 yards with a 415 grain hb-swc and 45 grains of graf 3fg; it shoots to point of aim -100 yards with several different loads, including Lyman os and ns miniés at 55 grains of 3fg, and a punishing service load of a 570 grain Pritchett with 68 grains of 3fg.
The technique of aiming that straight-stocked rifle musket requires a different cheek-weld and hold than a Parker Hale 3 band with a more friendly stock drop, which I also shoot, btw, and perhaps that's why shooting too high can be easy to do.

[Maillemaker]

I have a Pedersoli 3 band that I bought new in 2013. It shoots to point of aim at 50 yards with a 415 grain hb-swc and 45 grains of graf 3fg; it shoots to point of aim -100 yards with several different loads, including Lyman os and ns miniés at 55 grains of 3fg, and a punishing service load of a 570 grain Pritchett with 68 grains of 3fg.
The technique of aiming that straight-stocked rifle musket requires a different cheek-weld and hold than a Parker Hale 3 band with a more friendly stock drop, which I also shoot, btw, and perhaps that's why shooting too high can be easy to do.

I've heard other people have had good point-of-aim with repros. I don't know how you guys are doing it. Cheek weld shouldn't matter because the eyeball has to line up in the line created by the front and rear sight. As long as your eyeball is in the same place, it should shoot in the same place. Right?

Steve

[Mike McDaniel]

I found that with the Enfield, you really have to shoulder it like a shotgun. Keep the head up, instead of dropping it. Most shooters get better results that way.

[jonk]

Getting a gun to shoot well is a matter of trial and error. Some guns like certain bullets, others don't. Some like 2f, some like 3f. Some like the cavity in the bullet filled, others just want the outside lube grooves filled.

It's good you got a couple molds. I have one gun that shoots the Lee microgroove full wadcutter well. Not the best, but well enough. I have another that likes the classic minie design well enough, but the Lee mold isn't fat enough.

What I'd do is take the molds you have ordered, and cast up a bunch of bullets of known dead soft lead, from a reputable source. Cull any with voids or wrinkles of course. Lube them up. Start with 40 gr of 3f goex and work up to 50. Do the same with 2f, starting at 45 and up to 55. If you are limited to pyrodex, the same principle applies to their 2 and 3f equivalents. Use a big sheet of paper so if they go high, it's ok; you're looking for a group.

Once you have a group from a bench at 50 yards that is under 2", repeated, you can adjust the sights to go from there.

If neither of these bullets work, the sources listed in this thread can provide some samples from differing moulds.

Sometimes you get lucky. Some experience helps. I'd bet money that 40 gr with the classic design and 45 with the wadcutter would work with goex, though I can't say as to pyrodex, or using bore butter. I use spg or one of several homeade options, but I know some guys who do well with bore butter- minus that it melts in hot weather.

[desmobob]

Cheek weld shouldn't matter because the eyeball has to line up in the line created by the front and rear sight. As long as your eyeball is in the same place, it should shoot in the same place. Right?
Steve

If the sights are properly aligned when you press the trigger, it shouldn't matter where your cheek is or isn't. I did my test shooting off the bench on good rests. My sight picture was perfect and my rifle shot very high. BUT... that was with the too-hard minies that were key-holing all over the place.

I have two new minies to try that are cast from Lyman molds from pure, soft lead (according to the seller). I also received my ball sizer and ball greaser from Pedersoli. The service from Flintlocksetc. was excellent and I had them in no time after ordering. I probably won't be able to cast with my Lee minie molds until springtime.



Getting a gun to shoot well is a matter of trial and error. Some guns like certain bullets, others don't. Some like 2f, some like 3f. Some like the cavity in the bullet filled, others just want the outside lube grooves filled.

It's good you got a couple molds. I have one gun that shoots the Lee microgroove full wadcutter well. Not the best, but well enough. I have another that likes the classic minie design well enough, but the Lee mold isn't fat enough.

What I'd do is take the molds you have ordered, and cast up a bunch of bullets of known dead soft lead, from a reputable source. Cull any with voids or wrinkles of course. Lube them up. Start with 40 gr of 3f goex and work up to 50. Do the same with 2f, starting at 45 and up to 55. If you are limited to pyrodex, the same principle applies to their 2 and 3f equivalents. Use a big sheet of paper so if they go high, it's ok; you're looking for a group.

Once you have a group from a bench at 50 yards that is under 2", repeated, you can adjust the sights to go from there.

If neither of these bullets work, the sources listed in this thread can provide some samples from differing moulds.

Sometimes you get lucky. Some experience helps. I'd bet money that 40 gr with the classic design and 45 with the wadcutter would work with goex, though I can't say as to pyrodex, or using bore butter. I use spg or one of several homeade options, but I know some guys who do well with bore butter- minus that it melts in hot weather.

Thanks very much for the tips. I appreciate it.

I have two types of lube: a classic tallow/beeswax mix that is pretty hard right now in the upstate NY weather, as well as a new tube of T/C Bore Butter. I blew out the bottom seam of the tube while trying to squeeze some out at the range a few weeks ago. Can anyone recommend a low-viscosity temperature-stable lube that I could use in the Pedersoli greaser? Both the lubes I have are too hard for this weather and I'd really like to fill the greaser with something that would work in all temperatures (although I realize that may be wishful thinking).

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions! I'm enjoying this forum very much.

Tight groups,
Bob

[jonk]

If you're willing to futz about a bit, you can make a good low temperature lube with synthetic (must be synthetic!) mobil 1 oil. Mix that into some beeswax. For all purpose lube, I would use close to a 50/50 ratio, but for cold weather, adding more oil would be the trick, until you have a grease like mix.

For that matter, synthetic wheel bearing grease or white lithium grease will do what you are asking just fine, and both are available in tubes from any auto parts store, and stable year round. I never personally got best accuracy that way but it would surely be a place to start and will keep your fouling soft.

[desmobob]

I got to the range for a bit today and tried some new pure lead minies in my Pedersoli 3-band Enfield. The minies were purchased from Track of the Wolf, and were the two types cast from the Lyman 575213 molds.

The shorter, lighter 460gr. version with the thick skirt would not engage the rifling on firing. I tried a charge as high as 70gr. FFG and they were tumbling all over the place. Maybe I should have gone higher in an attempt to expand that minie's thick skirt?

The longer, heavier "original" type 510gr. minie with the longer, thinner skirt shot very well with 50gr. of FFFG. It was a great relief to finally see some round holes in the target! I'm hoping that minies cast with my new Lee .575 500gr. mold will do as well, as the bullets seem similar. The other Lee mold I purchased is for the lighter bullet with the shorter, thicker skirt. I'm thinking I may have wasted my money buying that one. Time will tell.

Now, I just need to come up with a simple sighting solution to deal with my Enfield shooting a foot high at 50 yards. I found that by holding the tip of the front sight at the very bottom of the rear sight's V-notch, I was good at 100 yards but still quite high at 50. I'll be looking to make an extension for my front sight blade that can be fitted over the original front sight block and blade and soldered or glued on.

My new Pedersoli bullet greaser worked perfectly and I'm very happy with it. I found an old tube of CVA brand patch and ball lube in the basement and it stayed viscous enough to work well in the luber, even in today's 32*F temperature.

Thanks again for the help and suggestions,
Bob