Smoothbore Alterations, a Refresher

[John Holland]

Some time has passed since the Small Arms Committee and the Board of Directors addressed the issue of altering original smoothbore muskets to make them into H&P sighted types. I am again beginning to receive requests to modify non-sighted original antique muskets into H&P sighted muskets. Therefore, with the addition of so many new members since this had been covered in the April/May/June 2013 issue of the Skirmish Line magazine, I thought perhaps it may be time to refresh everyone's memory. At that time the following was put into place:

"Therefore, as of June 1, 2013 original, as-issued, smoothbore muskets modified from their original as-issued configuration will no longer be issued SAC Individual Approval Cards."

What this means is that if you have one of the original M-1816 or M-1840 muskets altered to a percussion chambered breech type by one of the 20+ shops in the Philadelphia area, which generally resemble the H&P configuration, you cannot add a H&P rear sight and H&P front blade to make into a H&P for use in the N-SSA. Neither can you take a M-1816 or M-1840 musket with a cone-in-barrel percussion alteration and modify it into a H&P.

An additional problem which has arisen recently is the modification of the front and rear sights on smoothbore muskets. Please read N-SSA Rule 19.9.1 (l), which specifically states that the sights on any smoothbore arm may not be altered or modified in any way, shape, or form from which it was issued. When the Board of Directors created the Smoothbore Rules of Competition they specifically stated that they intended this match to be an "As-Issued Match".

These decisions are still in place today.

John Holland
Small Arms Staff Officer

[Maillemaker]

Please read N-SSA Rule 19.9.1 (l), which specifically states that the sights on any smoothbore arm may not be altered or modified in any way, shape, or form from which it was issued. When the Board of Directors created the Smoothbore Rules of Competition they specifically stated that they intended this match to be an "As-Issued Match".

Hey John,

Does this mean as issued originally, or as issued by the manufacturer for a reproduction. I have considered replacing the cast-in steel front sight on my Armisport 1842 with the correct brazed/staked bronze front sight. Would that be OK?

Steve

[John Holland]

Steve - Yes, the rules are in reference to original arms. Regarding your ArmiSport M-1842, if you change the arm from the way it was originally approved, i.e. replacing the front sight with a proper replica of the original brass front sight blade, you will be required to have the replacement inspected by a SAC Inspector to verify it has been done properly. The SAC Inspector will then send me the information and you will be issued a SAC Individual Approval Card verifying that the change you made is acceptable.

Thank you for asking!

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

If a manufacturer such as Pedersoli was to submit a 'to original spec' sighted H & P conversion reproduction, would it be approved? I doubt that they will ever actually do it. But if it is possible to have a repro H & P approved, then you should be able to build an H & P from parts the same way that you can build all of the other guns that we shoot from parts. You get an original stock and stretch it, a repro barrel, a mixture of original and repro parts for the lock, barrel bands, buttplate, trigger group, etc. and you have a built up H & P. I have at least three rifled muskets that were built up from parts in this manner and were easily approved, including a rifled Remington conversion of a model 1816.

[Maillemaker]

If a manufacturer such as Pedersoli was to submit a 'to original spec' sighted H & P conversion reproduction, would it be approved? I doubt that they will ever actually do it. But if it is possible to have a repro H & P approved, then you should be able to build an H & P from parts the same way that you can build all of the other guns that we shoot from parts. You get an original stock and stretch it, a repro barrel, a mixture of original and repro parts for the lock, barrel bands, buttplate, trigger group, etc. and you have a built up H & P. I have at least three rifled muskets that were built up from parts in this manner and were easily approved, including a rifled Remington conversion of a model 1816.

Hey Jim. I've been kicking this idea around since I got back from the Nationals. I sent a rather lengthy email to Pedersoli and Chiappa describing the H&P situation to see if they would be interested in making a repro Federal Contract H&P 1816 Conversion. Pedersoli responded with questions; never heard back from Chiappa. Pedersoli mostly wanted to know what was wrong with their existing 1816 (see below).

My original thought was that you could take a Pedersoli Colt Conversion and simply swap out the barrel with an appropriate H&P breech and re-machine the lock to fit the H&P Bolster and you're done.

Unfortunately, as I understand it, the Pedersoli 1816 is based on their 1777 Charleville stock. So it is not dimensionally close enough to an 1816 to pass N-SSA approval today. Evidently the N-SSA was a bit more forgiving when the Pedersoli 1816 and Colt Conversion first came out.

What I contemplated as a project would be to take a Dunlap 1816 stock, S&S Firearms 1816 hardware, and a Pedersoli Colt Conversion 1816 lock and machine it to match an H&P Bolster. Whitacre or Hoyt could make the barrel, but they need a breech. Hoyt used to have someone who made H&P breeches, but they no longer do. My pipe dream is to get an H&P barrel/breech, and using calipers make an accurate 3D solid model of it. Then you can go to a place like Protolabs and have a breech CNC machined from billet, which a barrel maker like Hoyt or Whitacre could marry to one of their smoothbore barrels. As you note, you would then have to get SAC approval but, assuming you did a good, accurate job, it should not be difficult.

Of course going this route would result in a firearm that probably would cost $2000 or more. People will point out that you can buy a "shootable" original H&P for that kind of money, which is true, but you won't be able to buy one that looks brand new like the repro would for $2000. Of course these were not brand new when converted so finding an H&P conversion in very fine condition would be an exceedingly rare and expensive thing.

I have hopes that Pedersoli will pick it up. I explained to them that there is now a lock on the H&P market since the N-SSA is not allowing people to try to dress up other smoothbores to look like an H&P simply by slapping a rear sight on them. Basically the only realistic option right now is to buy an original, and prices are reflecting that given the perceived/real advantage of having a rear sight with our specially-developed target loads for smoothbores. But it appears that they would have to start making a new stock, and they would need to tool up investments for the breech and the stock hardware, plus new CNC programming to modify their existing 1816 locks. I pointed out to them that there were about 270 individual smoothbore shooters and about 500 team smoothbore shooters at the last Nationals, out of some 3500 members. Is that enough to be interesting to them? Time will tell.

Steve

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Steve,

The only guns that I shoot without rear sights are shotguns. :cool:

Really nice post!

[MR. GADGET]

I got a email from DP little over a week ago that the cost is a problem for the repop.

What they did say is that if they could do a batch of 200 they would do it.
They stated that Dixie would import them.
In order to get to the 200 dixie would take a deposit on them and when they hit 200 they would produce and ship them.
Think that would take 6 months if I remember.

Over the last several years I have been in contact with DP on this and other projects.

So it would be nice if we could get a link or info direct from Dixie to get it started and alao let sutlers know to have them add some to the list for future shooters that want them.

[Maillemaker]

Hey that's cool, Mr. Gadget!

The problem is they will need to produce a prototype for approval before people are going to shell out for the deposit on something that may or may not get N-SSA approval.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

What I contemplated as a project would be to take a Dunlap 1816 stock, S&S Firearms 1816 hardware, and a Pedersoli Colt Conversion 1816 lock and machine it to match an H&P Bolster. Whitacre or Hoyt could make the barrel, but they need a breech. Hoyt used to have someone who made H&P breeches, but they no longer do. My pipe dream is to get an H&P barrel/breech, and using calipers make an accurate 3D solid model of it. Then you can go to a place like Protolabs and have a breech CNC machined from billet, which a barrel maker like Hoyt or Whitacre could marry to one of their smoothbore barrels. As you note, you would then have to get SAC approval but, assuming you did a good, accurate job, it should not be difficult.them?


Earlier, when it was discussed anent the interior of the chambered breech, this may not have been clear to some readers. Below is an interior view of the chambered breech for Remington's Maynard conversion for which is very similar to the interior of the H&P chambered breech. With any chambered breech design, the interior of the chamber is the difficulty you must find a way to overcome as the threaded projection has too thin a wall to be bored out to the .69 caliber full bore diameter.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii305/rmac1023/RMBreech_zpsmmcomzkb.jpg

[Maillemaker]

My hope is that they can do it however they do it on reproduction 1842s and just alter the exterior geometry to look like an H&P. That way you get .69 all the way to the bottom.

Steve