Sharps "o-ring job"?

[Maillemaker]

So evidently Charlie Hahn and some others do an "o-ring" job on Sharps rifles and carbines. I am given to understand that a part of the sliding bushing is removed and an o-ring put in front of it that keeps the rear of the bushing protruding out into the chamber space a bit, keeping it butted up against the breech block.

It appears that Pedersoli has already done a similar o-ring job, but they come at it from the opposite direction, putting the o-ring behind the gas plate in front of the block. This has the same effect of keeping a tight fit between the breech face and the chamber.

Is the Pedersoli fix as good as the Charlie Hahn fix?

I was able to get about 20 shots off before the fouling made the action difficult to operate. Then I had to squirt some Ballistol on the breech face to free up the action.

The Pedersoli "o-ring job":
http://i.imgur.com/kDUk7ozl.jpg

Steve

[Michael Bodner]

I think you answered your own question... 20 shots before it locks up.

We can go a whole carbine match (40-60 shots) with a Charlie Hahn seal without worrying about lock-up (or cleaning the breech mechanism).

-Mike

[Wayne Clark]

Steve,
A few questions. Do you use any lube on the chamber side or breech face? Do you lube the breech block itself ? Were you shooting hair curler paper cartridges? Also not related, have you cleaned your vent clean out screw and channel? Do forgive me for being simple. By your previous posts,I wan't sure how much experience you had with one of these. You don't need the type of tutoring I was laying on. Your gun was used and I was't sure if "Plowboy" had cleaned the vent regularly, I had an early Shiloh and unknowingly failed to clean it. Well, when I discovered it I twisted the vent screw head off. Then I had a problem.
W. Clark

[Fred Jr]

I have a Shiloh Sharps that I've been competing with for 30+ years. A couple years ago I had Charlie do his magic and it shoots better than I can shoot it. It had eaten away around the breech and needed some help. I can't even guess how many rounds went through it before it needed the help. Since I have had the work done it has never become bound while i was shooting.

just my experience with my baby! A couple shoots ago I decided that I would go ahead and shoot it in the rain. It didn't speak to me for two weeks!

[Maillemaker]

Hi Wayne,

I have only shot it once during a load workup test last weekend.

I'm shooting the Pedersoli USA 317-541 3-ring bullet. It is about 525 grains. I made the cartridge body out of standard printer paper, with an internal end cap made using hair curler paper. They worked very well. I had only one failure to fire but I think this was because I got a drop of Ballistol on the nipple. All the rest went off immediately. Sometimes a bit of paper residue remained, but it pushed forward with the introduction of the next bullet. I have since made up the next batch using nitrated paper to see if it burns up more completely. I tried making the cartridge body out of hair curler paper but found it too fragile.

Here is what my cartridge looks like:

http://i.imgur.com/A9H99iZl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/dGZGIjil.jpg

Here is what the residue looked like, when it could be found:
http://i.imgur.com/1KMgcPEl.jpg

Before shooting I greased all of the contact areas of the block with white lithium grease, side rails, rear rails, front face of gas check plate, and between the plate and block.

When the action started to bind up, I found through trial and error that applying Ballistol to the interface between the front face of the gas check plate and the breech was where all of the sticking was coming from. I was using Ballistol because that was all I had at the range to work as a lube. It worked fine and the action would work again for another 10 shots or so before I had to re-lube with more Ballistol.

Yes, I removed the cone, clean-out-screw, and fire channel exit during cleaning.

I found 50 grains 3F Goex gave a very good group.

http://i.imgur.com/s4E1T1Cl.jpg

Steve

[Maillemaker]

After reading this:

http://www.berdansharpshooters.com/Everything_Sharps.pdf

It sounds like Pedersoli has incorporated the "Sam Dobbins" method of improving the gas check:



But instead of an open flange, the Pederosoli Sharps has a weird
recessed flange/flat washer combination that slides down around the
internal cone of the breechblock. Last January Jim Boullion of the
Wisconsin Co. clued me in on how to improve the performance on a
Pederosoli Sharps—without mucking about with the gas sleeve. He
got his advice by an NSSA gunsmith by the name of Sam Dobbin.
Sam told Jim to remove the gas check, flip it faceplate down and
grind down the circular/washer (the part that rests against the
breechblock recess and surrounds the protruding block cone). Take
very small swipes of metal off until you remove between 1/32-1/16th
of an inch. Dobbin then inserts a rubber or neoprene 3/4 x 1/16
"O" ring into the space, covers it with grease, and then pushes the gas
check down over it. The ‘O’ ring acts like a spring; it maintains
enough pressure on the gas check that when fired the check will move
forward and seal the breech. Also, the O-ring provides enough ‘play’
that it doesn’t interfere when the block is drawn up and down when
reloading. According to Jim his new rebuilt Garret block action stays
operational and smooth even after 50 or 60 rounds (both live and
blank) have been fired through it.



Steve

[Wayne Clark]

Steve,
Thats a good looking cartridge. Yes, curler paper a bit fragile, but manageable. That is what I use, nitrated. When you say fragile, what problem have you encountered?

W. Clark

[Maillemaker]

Yes, curler paper a bit fragile, but manageable. That is what I use, nitrated. When you say fragile, what problem have you encountered?

I just found them too weak to sustain any kind of handling after I removed the tube from the mandrel - they just collapse at the slightest touch. Trying to re-insert a mandrel with the hair-curler "end cap" would destroy it. Trying to set a bullet into the other end would bend over the edge of the paper. I contemplated doubling up the hair curling papers to make a more stout body, but ultimately settled on the notebook paper, which worked pretty well even without nitrating. I have now nitrated paper and will try again using that.


Sounds like a stout load your using, but average. That barrel probably has more than one harmonic. Start lower, up it say 5 grains at a time.. you of course will have to adjust the filler as well. Mine has 3 harmonics, I try to use the one nearest the middle.

I did workups with 40, 45, 50, 55, and 60 grains (60 is near the max that will fit in the chamber with this bullet). You can see the groupings on the target above. Top-center is the 50 grain group.

Steve

[Wayne Clark]

Steve,
I understand about trying to insert an end cap .
W.Clark

[Maillemaker]

Yeah, there was a video where a fellow was applying the cap to the outside of the tube using dilluted Elmers.

I'll try some 30s and 35s next time. But it's pretty hard to beat what I got with 50. :)

Steve

[ian45662]

I have a carbine that hahn worked on. I honestly have no idea how many shots it will go through in a day and thats because I have never had it seize up on me after a day of shooting individuals and team events. If you are having trouble its something I would very much recommend. How is the face of your gas check plate? You could try polishing it a bit with 600 grit sand paper and see what that does

[jonk]

I never had Charlie work on my gun (though have had him tune a lock and replace some parts, and can vouch for his work!) but will say this:

I have a Pedersoli sharps. I had the same issue as you. Charlie lists a link to a product my McMaster Carr on his web page, extreme pressure grease.

Fill the breech face with that and rub down the sides and rear of the block.

That done, I can now go over 100 shots without any issue.

I'd try the simple 10 buck tube of grease fix first, then go from there; heck if you want to try it I'd be happy to mail you some squirted into an old film container or something similar, enough for a try or two.

[Maillemaker]

OK, Jonk, I will give that a try first!

Extreme High Pressure Grease -- P/N 1392K31 from mcmaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com)

I just ordered a 4-ounce tube.

Steve

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

I use this grease and am pleased with it, but found that it behaves as though it is almost water soluble. The residue on my fingers washes off easily with running water. I guess it is supposed to be that way.

Anyone with similar experience and observations, please? Thanks.

Respectfully,
Kevin Tinny

[Maillemaker]

The McMaster-Carr site says that it is "mineral" based, so I would assume that means mineral oil. I would not expect that to be water soluble, but who knows?

Tonight with some careful filing I made a replacement German Silver front sight for the Sharps. The sight blade now stands .25" above the site block, which should be more than enough to compensate for the 9" high group at 50 yards.

The first one I botched so I made another. Prototypes and all that.

I will do final filing at the range.

http://i.imgur.com/Q1d9LRRl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/h0U3OS1l.jpg

Steve

[plowboysghost]

Steve,
A few questions. Do you use any lube on the chamber side or breech face? Do you lube the breech block itself ? Were you shooting hair curler paper cartridges? Also not related, have you cleaned your vent clean out screw and channel? Do forgive me for being simple. By your previous posts,I wan't sure how much experience you had with one of these. You don't need the type of tutoring I was laying on. Your gun was used and I was't sure if "Plowboy" had cleaned the vent regularly, I had an early Shiloh and unknowingly failed to clean it. Well, when I discovered it I twisted the vent screw head off. Then I had a problem.
W. Clark

I cleaned the vent after every shooting session.

[plowboysghost]

I just found them too weak to sustain any kind of handling after I removed the tube from the mandrel - they just collapse at the slightest touch. Trying to re-insert a mandrel with the hair-curler "end cap" would destroy it. Trying to set a bullet into the other end would bend over the edge of the paper. I contemplated doubling up the hair curling papers to make a more stout body, but ultimately settled on the notebook paper, which worked pretty well even without nitrating. I have now nitrated paper and will try again using that.



I did workups with 40, 45, 50, 55, and 60 grains (60 is near the max that will fit in the chamber with this bullet). You can see the groupings on the target above. Top-center is the 50 grain group.

Steve

I found the only weak point of the hair wrap cartridge to be the point where I tied the cartridge onto the base of the bullet, but in truth, I may have been handling them gingerly....having not been in competition. Also, I filled my cartridges with 85 grains of 3F Goex and might have lost 3-5 grains when the tail was cut off the cartridge, so I can't figure how you can only get 60 grains in it using the exact same mold. Your grouping in the pic you sent me looked good though, so I'd go with what seems to be working well for you.

[Maillemaker]

Also, I filled my cartridges with 85 grains of 3F Goex and might have lost 3-5 grains when the tail was cut off the cartridge, so I can't figure how you can only get 60 grains in it using the exact same mold. Your grouping in the pic you sent me looked good though, so I'd go with what seems to be working well for you.

Hey Charles,

I am using a .5" diameter dowel, which exactly fits the ring on the base of the Pedersoli bullet. Rather than tie them on, I apply super glue to the ring on the base of the bullet and then slip it into the tube and let it dry in place.

I can tell that the tube is slightly smaller than the chamber diameter. So it is possible your tubes were slightly bigger in diameter than mine?

But when wound on a .5" diameter dowel, and made to 1.4" long, this makes them just flush with the chamber face when the bullet is up against the rifling. And in that size tube, I could only get about 62 grains of 3F Goex in maximum.

Here is a picture of a cartridge as I make them:

http://i.imgur.com/A9H99iZl.jpg

Steve

[plowboysghost]

I was using 1/2" diameter copper tube for my form. The cartridge was just large enough for the ringtail of the bullet to seat, but not enough to go over the rear driving band of the bullet. The cartridge was smaller diameter than the chamber, but I pushed the rear of the cartridge with my finger to push the bullet into the rifling just a hair, and in doing so, the cartridge would burst and fill out the chamber. I put 85 grains of 3F in the cartridge, and might have lost 3-5 grains in closing the chamber.

The manual I gave you with it said 80-grains of 3F, so that's what I did....plus a few grains.

I have no doubt that you will make it work better than I did in the short time I had it, though.

[Maillemaker]

Oh no! The chamber shrank when I washed it! :) :) :)

It sounds like maybe your tubes were a bit longer than mine, and when you smooshed them into the chamber it ruptured the tube and filled the space around it.

Steve

[Maillemaker]

OK my grease came in so I have slathered up the breech face and the rest of the block.

Got the new sight on, now I just need to get to the range to get her dialed in.

Steve

[jonk]

Very good. Make sure to squirt some into the breech face as well. Not sure how that will work with the Pedersoli mod already in place but that resevoir I think is what makes mine run for so long without issue.

For that matter though, for anyone who has the Hahn mod, he still recommends it for greasing the block. It's good stuff.

I never found it to be particularly soluble in water, but it is more so than say wheel bearing grease, which is what I was using before. I think that the carrier might be fairly soluble, even if the active part of the grease isn't.

[Maillemaker]

Very good. Make sure to squirt some into the breech face as well. Not sure how that will work with the Pedersoli mod already in place but that resevoir I think is what makes mine run for so long without issue.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I smeared it all over the breech face (the metal around the chamber sleeve) and all over the face of the gas plate.

Are you saying fill the o-ring cavity full of grease also?

Steve

[jonk]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I smeared it all over the breech face (the metal around the chamber sleeve) and all over the face of the gas plate.

Are you saying fill the o-ring cavity full of grease also?

Steve

Exactly that; just don't block the flash hole. Fill the cavity up, seat the plate, then wipe off the excess that oozes out, and if need be, clear the flash hole.

[Maillemaker]

OK, got to the range today with 50 nitrated cartridges with 50 grains 3F Goex, and did a set of 5 30 and 35 grains. 30 grains actually might have been promising, surprisingly.

Unfortunately I forgot my cleaning rod so all shots were fired with no cleaning. I began to see some drift to the left and also my groups were not as impressive as my first outing above.

Here is a representative group after I got done filing on the front sight:

http://i.imgur.com/4GEwIE6l.jpg

It's not terrible - Mean Radius of .991 inches. Previously it was .71. But I'll have to try this again while cleaning between courses of fire.

I forgot to pack in the grease before I got started, but after 5 shots I took out the breech block and filled the o-ring cavity with the high pressure grease. I got off about another 10 or so rounds before it began to jam up again. I kept shooting by dribbling a couple of drops of Ballistol on the breech face to keep it running.

When I removed the breech block tonight at home for cleaning, all grease was gone from the o-ring cavity. So some time during 50 or so shots all the grease had been blown away.

I think I'm going to go ahead and send it to Larry Flees.

Steve

[jonk]

Probably a good choice then. Mine will run all day, but that's THE grease to have, and if it isn't doing it and is blowing out, you obviously have too much gas leakage for the grease to overcome.