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View Full Version : Nice Tinted Photo of Union Soldier with Spencer Rifle



Two Flints
06-22-2008, 09:37 PM
Hello N-SSA,

Your comments are welcome on this great photo! I don't have any other information on the soldier's unit.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/unionsoldierspencercropped.jpg


Two Flints

C.W. Artillery
09-02-2016, 07:17 AM
Union Cavalry Trooper Armed With a Spencer


02 September 2016 --- I seem to think the photo image shows a cavalry trooper, based upon the fact he is wearing high riding boots with his breeches tucked into the top of his boots. Given that, I would expect his long arm to have been a Spencer carbine, however, there is no doubt but his long arm is of the rifle length.

I would also expect a cavalry trooper to have his revolver in a side holster with a flap closure securing the pistol from loss during riding. As presently seen, the pistol would wind up on the ground somewhere on any ride (even a light trot) other than a walk. Of course, we are looking at a studio presentation where the subject exercises his free will to present himself as he wishes for his audience.

A great study of a Civil War participant and I thank you for posting it, even if it was quite some time ago.


Webb Brown

bobanderson
09-02-2016, 08:20 AM
I'm on the bare edge of what I know, but here's what I see. Feel free to educate me on points where I'm off base.

Doesn't the yellow insignias, the stripes on the pants and tassels on the saber also indicate a cavalry unit?

The pistol looks like a big Colt, like a Walker or a Dragoon. I thought cavalry units often carried them in pommel holsters. If so, posing for a picture with one in his belt is more to show off his equipment.

Bruce Cobb 1723V
09-02-2016, 08:52 AM
Thats some kind of getup he has on. The cross belt may be for a carbine. If that is right than this is not Civil War but an Indian War era. The width of the strap is for a 45-70 carbine and the cartridge box looks like it too.

Eggman
09-02-2016, 09:18 AM
For what it's worth, John Wilder's "Lightning" Brigade (mounted) carried the long Spencer.

Wayne Clark
09-02-2016, 09:30 AM
Nice photo with the process of Dynamichrome bringing out the true colors. To me the original appeared to be a glass plate. The cavalry trim seems to have been enhanced with gold paint. As his for his equipment these could be the photographers studio props. A common practice during this period. The short roundabout jacket speaks cavalry and the rifle spells dragoon. Recruit that man.
W. Clark

John Holland
09-02-2016, 10:00 AM
Great to hear from my old friend Two Flints who, for those of you who may not know, is the founder of the Spencer Shooting Society! If you have any interest in "everything Spencer" I highly recommend visiting his page at http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/board,35.0.html where you find hours of delightful and fascinating reading.

I thank Two Flints for posting the great photo of a Cavalry Sergeant.

Bruce Cobb may be correct that it is a post Civil War photo, and in classic tin-type fashion it is a reversed image. I also suspect it may be loaded with photographers props, a not uncommon thing in that time period.

It is interesting that he is wearing a soft "Bummer's Cap" and not a Kepi.

I agree with Bruce that the Carbine sling is the later model. The most common is the M-1885, although there was an earlier model with a different buckle. I can't remember when the early type was issued and those reference books not accessible at this time.

The revolver is the standard Colt 1860 Army Revolver.

The cartridge box, with what appears to be a brass reinforcement on the bottom of the flap, would seem t be the M-1874 Dyer Cartridge Box. If that is correct it gives a date which the photo can't precede.

The sword, although difficult to see with the tinting seems to be the common M-1860, and is complete with the enlisted man's saber knots.

All in all, again a great photo!

C.W. Artillery
09-02-2016, 10:10 AM
02 September 2016


:

Doesn't the yellow insignia, the stripes on the pants and tassels on the saber also indicate a cavalry unit?

The pistol looks like a big Colt, like a Walker or a Dragoon. I thought cavalry units often carried them in pommel holsters. If so, posing for a picture with one in his belt is more to show off his equipment.


Thanks for your astute observations and corresponding additions here; AFTER ALL, aren't we all students at some level, and therefore instructors in waiting ?

Your suggestion that the trooper's side arm in his waist belt is a "Dragoon" size revolver is well taken and appreciated. That suggestion help me put everything in perspective and I now totally agree with you. And as you have pointed out such a brace of Dragoons would be carried on the saddle pommel in the appropriate pommel hostler on each side of the horse's withers.

Identifying insignia colors are in fact yellow for cavalry, red for artillery, blue for . . . . , well you know all that already and it need not be repeated here.

Thanks again, Bob Anderson, for participating and it was nice to make your acquaintance.

Webb Brown
1st. Maine H. A. (retired)

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Eggman
09-02-2016, 10:28 AM
Doesn't the yellow insignias, the stripes on the pants and tassels on the saber also indicate a cavalry unit?
.
I wouldn't put too much stock in the tinting Bob. We all know how these latte sipping, tassel toed, VW driving, keesh eating artistic types take poetic license.

C.W. Artillery
09-02-2016, 10:35 AM
02 September 2016 --



For what it's worth, John Wilder's "Lightning" Brigade (mounted) carried the long Spencer.


Was that the result of some Supply Officer's poor reading capabilities, . . . , or just a routine military S.A.F.U. ? In any event, my military service taught me not to back track on such issues, but to go forward which meant to "fix it". Hence, I would have stopped at the first hardware store in the next town and purchased * enough "Hack Saw" blades for each trooper in the Brigade. At "break time", and a half hour of time, we would have all had Spencer Carbines for the rest of the war. Life is a series of "Opportunities".

* -- The store keeper would have been given the appropriate post office address for the War Department in Washington, D.C. to which to send his invoice for the cost of the saw blades.


Regards,

Webb Brown
1st. Maine H. A. (retired)

.

Eggman
09-02-2016, 10:49 AM
Wilder wanted the best he could get for his brigade; bought with personal funds. Carbine version - ease of carry advantage, not much other. Wilder's guys always dismounted to fight.

Eggman
09-02-2016, 11:24 AM
Got to make one last comment on this subject. Quite a while back (well past the statute of limitations) my family visited Chickamauga. A most interesting part of the battlefield is the Wilder monument near the center. The Confeds could NOT move Wilder's Brigade at all. The monument is a life size rearing horse - riderless. Of course never having experienced a McCellan saddle I had to try it out. The problem with the Wilder horse is it's almost impossible to stay on due to the slant. While sliding backward I ended up bumping my forehead on the horse's stone mane raising a goose egg - on forehead, not mane.

Eggman
09-02-2016, 12:32 PM
Well it was the 1st Wisconsin. Just wait - you'll go senile too.

John Holland
09-02-2016, 01:09 PM
A friend has a Spencer Rifle that is exactly one digit off from a positively ID'd Spencer from Wilder's Brigade! Oh, how he wishes that rifle could tell its story!

Carolina Reb
09-02-2016, 05:57 PM
Is that a saddle ring I see behind the receiver? In Wilder's Brigade it was common for soldiers to take a staple and coach strap ring from the saddle and install it on the stock as a saddle ring. I've seen a few of them so modified. The photo shows Henry Salmon's Spencer rifle. Henry was in Co. A of the 123rd Ill., Wilders Brigade.

geezmo
09-03-2016, 08:11 AM
????????????? And I thought it was me. I acknowledge that many old images contain studio props with some seeming inconsistencies. I didn't see or question any of the things in that photo that you guys did. The revolver is most certainly an 1860 colt. It just looks big because, unlike a lot of skirmishers today, a real Civil War soldier was generally smaller and much, much thinner. There also is nothing completely unusual about a cavalryman armed with a Spencer rifle. According to a 1997 article, by Wiley Sword, in Man at Arms magazine (more on this article later) the 5th and 6th Michigan Cavalry were armed with Spencer rifles at Gettysburg, and they were the only Spencers used in that battle. I also don't see any carbine slings or cartridge boxes. Since this is a reverse image we can see the "D" rings and supports for the saber on what appears to be his right, actually left, side. That strap over his shoulder is not a post war carbine sling. It is the support strap for his saber belt. I believe that what some are calling a cartridge box is actually a cap box. What looks like the brass reinforcement of a Hagner box is probably just one of the many light colored blotches visible in the photo. Behind that, under what looks like his left arm (actually right) is some other object, probably his empty holster. It was not uncommon to thrust the revolver in the belt, leaving the holster empty. It made the soldier (at least in his mind) look more fierce or war like. The shell jacket looks none standard, as it appears to have a lower collar and none of the yellow piping around the collar, down the front and on the cuffs. The only thing I see unusual in this image is the saber knot hanging from the guard of his saber. It's not the standard flat leather one with single tasseled end. It appears to be the woolen hat cord from a Hardee or Jeff Davis hat. Note the thin double body and double tassels at the end.

I wasn't going to bother getting into this discussion as I'm not that fast at typing, nor did I think it worth the effort. However, I woke up at 4:30 this morning thinking of this discussion and the aforementioned Man at Arms article. And, I thought I had seen that soldier before. When I got up I dug out that article and my copy of Roy Marcot's book "Spencer Repeating Firearms". Right there, at the beginning of Wiley Sword's article, and on page 60 of Roy Marcot's book, is a clearer, right sided view of the same soldier. He's sporting the same mustache, same shell jacket and same hat cord hanging from his saber. He's also got the Colt in his belt, with holster visible on his right side. Also, on page 49 of Marcot's is another image, of another soldier, with a Spencer rifle, Colt revolver in his belt and empty holster. If I wasn't so technically challenged I would have attached this image for those who don't have the article or the Spencer book. Maybe you can borrow one.

Barry S.

Eggman
09-03-2016, 09:01 AM
All I can say Barry, and I think this is for everybody, that is one HECK of an interesting post. Great Spencer info and a lesson to everybody on how to properly scope out an historical issue. This string will definately get exercised.
Got to say though, remember the old days when you used to wake up at 4:30 thinking about sex???????

John Holland
09-03-2016, 09:58 AM
A "Doff of the old thinking cap!" to Barry for that one! I just took a look at the photo referenced in Marcot's book. It is most assuredly the same Cavalryman, but a in different pose! This image is very clear and detailed. If there are now two known, differently posed images of the same individual, how many more are out there?
These are the types of discussions I find most enjoyable!

Wayne Clark
09-03-2016, 10:27 AM
Barry,
I believe the jacket is either a state or Federal issue shell jacket also known as a " roundabout". These were produced in great numbers by the Schuylkil Arsenal.
W. Clark

geezmo
09-03-2016, 11:42 AM
Eggman,

You are correct, I have vague recollections of that. But, like you said, they were the "old days".

Wayne,

I agree. Many, many years ago I had a Schuykill jacket. It definitely had a lower than standard collar. Frederick Todd, in his multi volume "American Military Equipage, 1851 - 1872" gives a good definition of these. His definition of a roundabout or shell jacket is "A short and usually tight fitting tailless jacket that reached an inch or so below the waist". The more common artillery and cavalry jackets that we routinely call a shell jacket is the Uniform Jacket. The definition he gives is "A jacket longer at the waist than a shell jacket and usually given a higher collar". I believe your are correct in calling the jacket, on the soldier we're discussing, a roundabout.

Thanks,
Barry S.

Bruce Cobb 1723V
09-03-2016, 07:18 PM
John, Another feature to support the later photo is that this guy has an 1874 Dyer carbine cartridge box on his belt. I don't remember how long the cavalry or infantry carried the Spencer rifles and carbines. I think they carried them up til the 1873 carbine was adopted. Certainly every unit everywhere wasn't given the newly adopted carbine or rifle right away. I bet it took some years til this happened. It may also be possible this is not a US Army Cavalry photo at all, but is a picture of a soldier from one of the many state militia units. That would explain everything, the mix of later leather goods and old, obsolete uniform pieces. The percussion revolver being a prop. A great old photo for sure.

Curt
09-04-2016, 10:56 AM
Hallo!

Side note...

Custer's men at Gettysburg did not have a choice of Spencers.

Spencer's first government contract for 11,000 of the M1860 Carbine was on July 13, 1863, recommending the first delivery in August.

The first 1,000 carbines delivered to the Ordnance Department, after some delay complaints from new Chief Of Ordnance Ramsay, were delivered on October 3, 1863. (Spencer had delivered 7,000 by December 31, but a new contract was proposed on December 17, 1863 for 34,500. Oddly enough initially the first 4,000 to be .52 and the rest .44. However, when the contract was signed seven days later the .44 part was gone.)

Curt

Eggman
09-05-2016, 01:28 PM
Bruce Cobb may be correct that it is a post Civil War photo, and in classic tin-type fashion it is a reversed image.
!

This illustrates one of the ways us Civil War buffs make friends. I refer to a visit my wife and I made to the Grenville Dodge house in Council Bluffs Ioway. Dodge you remember was one of Grant's hatchet men - later one of the great railroad builders. The house (mansion) is best remembered for the elegant spiral strairway running up thru the middle. In the entryway you'll meet two older ladies of course who provide orientation etc. There also is a large reproduced photo portrait of Dodge in CW mufti hanging on the wall. Noting the sword location I of course said, "You realize that's a reverse image don't you??" They said, "No it isn't; he was left handed." Then I said, "Notice also the buttons on the uniform all button the wrong way." I got a couple of long "Hmmmmms" on that one.

Curt
09-06-2016, 07:23 PM
Hallo!

A similar thing sometimes happens with George Custer's West Point image holding the M1855 Colt-Root revolver in his "left hand."

Curt