PDA

View Full Version : Individual Small Arms Approvals



John Holland
10-13-2016, 09:54 AM
There is a thread on the "Wanted/For Sale" page regarding the New Jersey H&P Rifled Muskets. The thread was started by a non-member with some arms for sale. It has now been convoluted by a N-SSA member starting a different discussion about his NJ H&P altered musket, and why it is not acceptable by the N-SSA's Small Arms Committee as a smoothbore musket. He is also asking for information from George Moller's books. If the individual who is questioning the SAC's decision regarding this arm had taken the trouble to stop in at the SAC Office during its hours of operation at the recent National all questions would have been answered there. In addition to that he could have reviewed Moller's set of books personally, as the SAC had a complete 3 volume set donated to their library several years ago by the 44th New York.

Please read the following from the N-SSA's Skirmish Rules:

19.1 ACCEPTABLE SKIRMISH MATCH FIREARMS

a. Only original or reproductions of military firearms manufactured during the Civil War or prewar era, and which meet the criteria set forth in these rules, shall be used for competition.

b. Those arms must have been manufactured prior to 26 April 1865 in quantities of at least 100 arms each.

c. The arms must have been possessed by a US, CS, state, or local military authority during the American Civil War, but they do not need to have been issued to troops in the field.


19.8.4 BURDEN OF PROOF, NON-STANDARD ARMS (INDIVIDUAL APPROVAL)

a. A competitor wishing to use an original firearm or reproduction of an original firearm part that does not appear to fit into any of the types or models of firearms known to have existed during the Civil War, or any arm on which the Small Arms Committee has no information, must submit documentation to the Small Arms Committee.

b. That documentation must include photocopies of original Civil War-era documents or books or recognized secondary source material, such as books or articles that directly validate the exact design or configuration of the arm or component submitted.

c. The documentation must also prove the production quantity of the arm submitted. The purpose of the documentation is to satisfy the committee that such firearms would qualify under rule 19.1.

d. The burden of proof is on the submitting party.

John Holland
N-SSA Small Arms Officer

RaiderANV
10-13-2016, 11:12 AM
Excellent post John and a huge THANK YOU for the 1000's of hours that you and the other members of the Small Arms Comm. VOLUNTEER each year not only helping our assoc. but in doing so preserve history!

Lou Lou Lou
10-13-2016, 12:46 PM
Ditto to what PJ said

John Holland
10-13-2016, 03:06 PM
Thank you both for your very kind comments and your appreciation of the volunteers who give freely of their personal time!

Muley Gil
10-14-2016, 05:39 AM
John da man! :D

John Holland
10-18-2016, 12:03 PM
Harry - I have taken some time to digest your response before replying to you.

You stated: T"he H and P appears to be a NJ, type 1 with clean out screw, but not marked NJ."
Reply: That makes it one of the first 4,000 that were delivered to New Jersey and went straight to the troops in the field before they could be marked "N.J".

You stated: "A search of the internet shows and article by James C. Altemus, “the Hewes and Phillips Story,”..."

Reply: The article was ground breaking at the time it was written 40 years ago, but is very dated by today's standards and the additional research by others. Mr. Altemus even confused a Confederate brazed bolster alteration for a early H&P. If you read the article closely Mr. Altemus made a lot of assumptions, such as the unmarked versions were done by H&P. It is well known today that there were some 25 other shops in the Philadelphia area doing the same type chambered breech alterations, but without rear sights.

You stated: "The plot thickens. In conversations and texts...with the gentleman mentioned in the post from Illinois.... He shared that the number of conversions of the H and P is more complicated than first stated. He mentioned that H and P had many “shops” that did the conversions."

Reply: Not really, as all H&P alterations were done only at their shop, and are marked "H&P", not complicated at all.

You stated: "He from Illinois shared that in 2002, a person made the argument to the SAC committee that there should be more types of smoothbore H and P’s approved, and the discussion is not cut and dry. He stated that the SAC committee rejected the proposal because all the variations would be too much for a volunteer committee of SAC to keep straight. This last statement appears to be true based on the comment of this well respected, retired, high ranking official."

Reply: I was Chairman of the SAC at that time and can tell you unequivocally that statement is absolutely untrue and never happened!

You stated: "...you have to be willing to go to SAC and do the “Dance” and I will give you research to support your claim."

Reply: If you had read the article I wrote in the Skirmish Line about smooth bore muskets, and which H&P alterations are allowed for use in the N-SSA's competitive matches, this whole thing would have never come about.

You stated: "I have been a member joining in 1978. When I go to Nationals...I arrive on Thursday afternoon...Middle Atlantic Regional Inspector"

Reply: With you having been a member for 38 years I am glad to see you step up in the MA Region to be the Regional Inspector General. I'm sure you must have kept up on the N-SSA's Rules and Bylaws. Do you remember that as a Region IG you have an obligation to work at each National?
From the N-SSA Bylaws:

SECTION 5 The duties of the Inspector shall be to:
(C) Assist the Inspector General at National Skirmishes. By not fulfilling your duties as the MA Region Inspector General at the past National you increased the burden of work upon those others who did what was required of them. Those IG's, and volunteer members of the IG Corps, had to fill in and do extra duty to cover your work assignments because you neglected to do your part.

John Holland
N-SSA Small Arms Officer
Traditional Match Committee Chairman
N-SSA IG Corps Volunteer
NE Assistant IG NE Region Artillery Officer

John Holland
10-18-2016, 10:36 PM
Harry - Thank you for the thoughtful and insightful response! I will continue this discussion off line. If you would like to contact me at your convince, you can find my email address in the Skirmish Line or the N-SSA Directory. Or, if you would like me to contact you which email address would you prefer I use, the Gmail or Verizon account?

Maillemaker
10-20-2016, 04:51 PM
Hi all,

I just wanted to let everyone know that I attempted to order Moller's Volume III from intra-library loan and they could not do so as no library was loaning it.

However, they pointed me to an electronic copy available via Google Books:

https://books.google.com/books?id=y7_DzNMrDqsC&lpg=PP1&pg=PT233#v=onepage&q&f=false

Hopefully this is useful to all.

Edit: Well, sadly, the book is not completely available. Parts are missing.

Steve

ms3635v
10-21-2016, 08:22 AM
Steve,

I got my set through Amazon...fast shipping too!

Maillemaker
10-21-2016, 09:23 AM
I ended up getting the Google Play version for like $80.

I did some machinations and have saved it off as a DRM-free PDF that I can now read on any device.

Steve