Smith carbine--- what works-what don't

[PoorJack]

So I'm trying to sort out a Smith. I've tried various powder charges (2f-3f?), seating depths (on the lands?), sizing (+.001 or .002?). One variable I haven't explored is lead hardness. What are you guys using?

[jonk]

Original or repro smith?

I can run in the low 30s with my stock Pietta with 30 gr of 2f Goex, 1cc of cornmeal over the powder, and a Lee .518 bullet from pure lead. For me, hard never did as well. Others have better luck with hard lead. Others do better with 3f. Just gotta play with it.

I seat so that my bullet is touching the lands, and it is about 2/1000 over groove size. In fact, the gun slightly compresses the load on closing.

[PoorJack]

It's a stock Pietta, bore slugs out to .515 and so far I've tried using a Rapine .515 mold with dead soft and wheelweight lead. Powder was 3f Goex from 28 up to 35gr with filler as needed. Mold has some issues with concentricity so when sized the bullet mics at .515 one way and .520 the other so as I see it, big issue here. After passing through a .515 sizer, they're .515, albeit the grooves are nearly wiped off in two places. Bought a new Lee mold ostensibly .518. Bullets drop at .517 so ok there. Got a .517 sizer at the same time. So the next round of experimentation used 3f Goex from 28 to 35gr with filler as needed, both sized and unsized from soft lead to wheelweight. Group size at 50yds hovers around 3in which is an improvement from the Rapine mold. I'll get a couple pigeons at this rate, but only at the speed of a blind squirrel.

Next up I was thinking about some 2f or maybe some harder lead like about 12-16 brinnel. I'm not sure what the wheelweight tests at, guess I need to buy a hardness tester. I got some of the harder lead from a local bullet casting shop where they test each batch before casting for centerfire smokeless guns and the 12-14b is what they use.

So does anybody shoot anything in that hardness range or am I barking up the wrong tree?

[Harley1247]

Try a 1 in 25 or a 1 in 20 mix. Wheel weights are too hard. You might one to try shooting them un-sized. I had a Pietta that I had to size them to 510. The bore sized at .508. Real quality control. The gun shot well with end. Even though they size .515 sizing from either end it seems there is something going on in the middle section of the barrel. Just in case U decide to get it relined tell Bob U want the hard steel

[PoorJack]

When I slugged the bore, I used a dead soft unsized bullet. There wasn't any change in the force needed to push it through so I don't think the bore is wonky. I'll cast up a few from the hard lead I have on hand and see what happens. The group size doesn't vary much with the sized bullets I have currently from the Lee mold shooting best but that's not acceptable. As it stands, I'm not going to be any kind of threat at the carbine match and this gun is really starting to annoy me.

A reline might be in order, but not until I exhaust all variables first. That's why I was thinking about harder lead. From what I've been able to google fu up on this gun, the repops can be tempramental about what works with some having to resort to a reline. I've read of guys shooting dead soft with a popgun charge and getting great results and others going to near linotype hardness to get the gun to shoot acceptably. One other variable I haven't tinkered with is lube. My musket is shooting fine with 50/50 crisco/beeswax. Is the Smith picky about lube type?

My testing methodology involves 5 shot strings from a wiped bore meaning a couple fouling shots, wipe the bore with a damp patch, pass a dry patch, test group. Observe where the shots hit as they are fired to determine if the first one is a flyer. What I haven't checked on is does the gun "like" to be shot somewhat fouled. I don't think I'm running out of lube in the barrel because the patches always pass smoothly through with no "crunchiness" similar to what you'd feel with hard fouling.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Had to ask. Original or repro? Some early Pietta's had issues
any questions call or write
tammany42@aol.com, 9174530171

[Lou Lou Lou]

Missed the first two responses some how
sorry

[jonk]

By all means, try the hard lead. Some guns like it. Just not TOO hard. If you have WW on hand, you can play around until you get something similar to 20:1 (which in my experience is very close to 1/1 ratio of ww to pure).

In my case, I am using the filler on top of the 2f charge (which I encourage you to try if 3f and hard doesn't work for you) simply because the gun grouped best with a 30 gr charge of that powder, but there was still a bit of a jump to the rifling; and with soft lead, I was getting some flyers. The filler got the bullet up to touch the lands on closing, and the flyers went away. 33 gr of 2f would do the same, but that shoots a slightly worse group for me. The cornmeal also scrubs the bore a bit and helps keep it clean I think, and provides some gas check protection to the soft lead bullet.

[Gary Vikar]

If I recall some of the very early Pietta Smith had problems with the rifling. What was be the breech end of the barrel was used as the muzzle end. This is not a good idea with progressive rifling reversed.

[george7542]

Yes up to the 2000 serial number is what I had heard on the barrel being backwards mine is in the 1900's had to go with a reline it shoots a Lyman 515139 or lee 6 cavity sized to 515 with 25 grains 3f goex 5cc scoop of corn meal in a black plastic tube lubed with beeswax and mutton.could be wrong on the serial number range

[PoorJack]

Is the serial # stamped on the bottom of the barrel hinge and the corresponding last 3 digits stamped on the bottom of the reciever? If so, then mine is in the 1100's.

[george7542]

P m sent ......

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

What are all the bullets styles & weights that work?

[PoorJack]

OK so here's where this stands. I got the gun from a team mate who bought it solely for new guys like myself. It was presented to him as having been partially worked out in that 50yds was dialed in and needed to do 100 and no known issues. BIG ISSUE, the barrel is one of the bad ones and nothing I can do is going to fix that. So I'm stuck here just prior to nationals with a carbine that patterns rather than group. The best I've gotten was just under 3in (most were much, much bigger) and that's totally unacceptable I may as well use my wrist rocket.

[Joseph Plakis Jr, 00302V]

If your barrel bore is smaller at the breach and wider at the muzzle the only cure is to have the barrel sleeved. If you are going to the nationals you can see Bob Hoyt. He does a very commendable job on fixing the problem you have.

I have shot every thing in my Smith from a .515 round ball to 50/70 bullets. If you fool with it enough & have enough patience just about any 50 Cal bullet could work. Once it is sleeved your best bet is see if you can get some bullets from a team mate to try rather than buy molds that may or may not work.

You also may want to look at Moose Molds in sutlers row for a mold & suggestions.


Joe Plakis Jr 00302V
Hampton Legion.

[george7542]

I was under the impression that the magic number for bad barrels was 1352 and anything under that was bogus.


True Blue and Diamond Hard,
Harry Gaul
3rd US
3626v
Middle Atlantic Regional Inspector.


Harry my smith is number 1927 and it had the bad barrel

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

Anyone try a hollow base bullet in one of those bad barrels?

[george7542]

Bruce I never thought to try before having it relined

[PoorJack]

I'm just going to drop the barrel off with Bobby for a reline at nationals. With the rifling issue, it's going to shoot about as well as a blunderbuss or a shotgun with slugs.

As for trying a hollow base bullet, I thought of that, but weighing the cost of a reline v custom mold (or a new one) then a reline seems to make the most economic sense to get this thing shooting straight long term. In the meantime, since the rules seem to allow dropping down with regards to a weapon, I wonder if they'll allow me to use my wrist rocket slingshot. I can shoot it about as well as this carbine at the moment.

[Randall]

Can someone send me contact info for Bob Hoyt? What does he normally charge to reline a Pietta Smith?

Thanks

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:
Suggest you search here for "Hoyt Address".

There are several postings with his new address and telephone number.

Regards.
Kevin Tinny

[PoorJack]

I found his new contact info on Google. I used search terms Hoyt barrel gunsmith.