Using a original 1859/63 Sharps Carbine at NSSA shoots

[Smokepole50]

Hello Gentleman,

To make a long story short, I made my first visit to Gettysburg in July and was bitten by the Civil War Bug. Upon my return to Virginia I set out to purchase a Civil War rifle. It ended up being from my cousin and it was a 1859 Sharps Carbine. I am told that because of its serial number that it is a 1859/63. It is an all original percussion the best I can tell and has a patch box stock. However, the serial number range is for the 1863 contract as I understand it......C 888X

The carbine is in very good condition and if I can get the nipple out and replaced I plan on shooting this old lady. I got the breech pressure plate freed up and out of the breech last week and plan on using a reproduction pressure plate when I shoot the rifle.

Do many people shoot the originals at the N-SSA events? I have been told that a lot of folks change out all the original internal lock parts when they do shoot them. It that really necessary? I have pulled my lock off the rifle and all my internals look to be in very good condition for their age. Are they prone to breakage?

You can see pictures of the rifle on the Civil War Talk forum. I use the same user name on that forum as well........Smokepole50

Thanks for you input

[Smokepole50]

Did I post this in the wrong place?

[John Holland]

Your post is OK, sometimes it takes a bit of time for people to formulate an answer, or just to read a post because many of our followers may only visit the Bulletin Board randomly. I'm sure you will get some replies!

I don't know where you are located, but if you are able to visit our Fall National Skirmish you will be utterly amazed at what you see there! There are many original arms being fired competitively there, although I can't say how many original Sharps are being used. As for lock parts most competitors prefer original parts over reproduction parts, with the exception of the main spring. The reason being that many types of original main springs are nearly cost prohibitive to replace. But, original Sharps main springs are still readily available.

[geezmo]

I agree with everything John said. I see no reason to swap out lock parts. Just keep them well cleaned and lubed with a light grease. I would also buy a spare mainspring and stirrup for the tumbler while they're still available, just in case. As I'm sure you know by now, the C prefix to your serial number stands for 100,000, so your carbine's number is 108,885. Some of the early New Model 1863s did have patch boxes in the stocks. I'm not sure how early. But, looking at your pictures on that Civil War site the color and condition of the butt and forearm matches and seem to have been together for a long time. As for the price, I think you did very well, especially if the bore is in good condition. Many dealers would be in the $2,500 +/- range, but there are bargains out there to be had, if you have the time and patience to look around. Two books you may want to get are: Sharps Firearms by Frank Sellers (I believe out of print, so it might be pricey) and Civil War Sharps Carbines & Rifles by Earl J. Coates & John D. McAulay. You might also want to look up the Sharps Collector's Association web site.

As for shooting it, go to the Shooting Tech Tips section on this site. The Sharps has been discussed extensively. Also, check out the Shiloh Rifle Company site. On their Forums there's a section for '63 shooting, support, etc. with a lot of good info. Finally, go to the Calendar section of this site, click on the Region closest to your location and find some shoots that you could go and check out. You may well meet some folks there who can share information with you.

Good luck,
Barry S

[kowdok]

Hello Smokepole
I am Jim Rogers, current Commander of the Carolina Region. Your being from SW Va. should put you no further than 2 hrs away from our region range. If you can schedule it, you should come visit us for our first skirmish of the fall season to be held on Sept. 16, 17, and 18. Range is easy to find, just off of I-77 north of Statesville. We do have an expert on breech loading carbines of the Civil War era, and he would love to talk to you about your Sharps. His name is Tony Beck and his team will be hosting the skirmish. If you can work it out, the ideal time to come would be Sat. morning 8 to 9 am and Tony or someone else can work with you actually shooting your Sharps, as long as you can bring some ammo. In my opinion, that would be the first step, then, as John said, you need to come up to Winchester for all or part of the Nationals to be held Oct. 7 through 9. As a visitor, you cannot shoot at a Nationals, but you are allowed to at a regional skirmish such as Statesville. If you can make it to Statesville, then we can talk about Nationals. You may feel free to contact me personally at email: jjjrogers@abts.net Looking forward to meeting you.

Jim Rogers

[Smokepole50]

Thanks for the responses guys. I will check with my wife and see what we have planned on the 16th. I would love to get some opinions about the best way to address some issues with the rifle and concerns about shooting it. I could be there in about 2.5 hours.

This will be long, and if you can understand what I am saying and not get bored, I would like your opinions...........both from a collector standpoint and a shooter view point.

If you saw the pictures on Civil War Talk forum you can scroll down further in the thread and see the pictures of the breech block. At some point in the past some previous owner could not get the clean-out screw out so they drilled it and counter sunk the screw face to allow the use of a flat head screw. They tapped the original body of the clean-out screw to accept the the threads of a shortened recessed flat head screw.

If I leave it as is I have concerns about the rifle not firing correctly because the internal area of the flash channel is a bit longer now and does not end at the end of the original clean-out screw channel . I have purchased a reproduction screw and intended to drill out the remaining parts of the original clean-out screw, use a mill to re-set the clean-out screw shoulder and then re-tap the breech block for the clean-out screw threads.

As a collector and shooter my concerns are the fact that the counter sink marks will never go away because the clean-out screw head is much smaller than the scar from the counter sink. The existing flat head screw repair does not fit in the block very well as it only uses 2-3 threads to hold it in place. I could possibly drill out the original clean-out screw shaft and use a modified over sized recessed flat head screw and tap new threads for the larger screw. This would allow me to clean-up the counter sink recess and improve the overall fit and alignment of the as is screw clean-out system I have now. This may be the way to go but I would like opinions on the best way to go. Should I just restore the original clean-out screw design and leave a scar as part of the rifles history or stay with the current modified system and try and improve the strength and gas sealing aspect to this retro-fit done long ago........... As to the strength issue mentioned above, the existing flat head screw threads are actually in the body of the original clean-out screw. If you look at the face of the repair screw you can see a flat area that I believe was caused by the screw slowly backing out when the gun is fired, pulling the remaining clean-out screw body with it. This is not a good thing.

Soooooo with all that being said, the nipple is being a real pain to remove. I am almost at the point of just buying a reproduction breech block from Lodgewood. From what I have read it would be a great improvement on the gas sealing and accuracy of the rifle.

If you read thru all this and did not get bored, I welcome your opinions.

Smokepole50

[kowdok]

One of the leading experts on Sharps carbines is Charlie Hahn. Hopefully he will see your post and answer your questions. He is an excellent gunsmith and manufactures his own solid breech block conversion for Sharps. After reading about the problems your block has, I think this would be the way to go, especially in order to shoot it safely. I have a Pedersoli with one of Charlies blocks and I will vouch for it implicitly. They are super easy to clean and maintain. Charlie does have website listed on this website under links and sutlers. They are not that expensive. Good luck.
Jim Rogers

[John Holland]

Here is another option, last year Ed Knisley (sp?) had several brand new old stock original Sharps breech blocks, complete and never in a gun. They weren't cheap, but they were real. If you don't know him and are interested I may be able to come up with a contact point for him

[Smokepole50]

Thanks for the help. I spent probably an hour today talking to Charlie. He has a fix that I think will be the best solution for my existing breech block clean-out screw issue. I don't think at this time that I want to modify my original breech block to the level that is needed for Charlies shooting solutions. I will probably go the way of buying a second breech block and have Charlie modify it for me. My only stumbling block is the mods to the barrel chamber insert that are needed as well for Charlies system to work properly. I am sure it is a good system, I just need to decide how much I want to shoot this rifle and weight it all out in my mind. I don't want to kill the value of this rifle when I could just buy a reproduction and shoot that instead. Its all a matter of how long you plan to keep something and how much you plan to use it. If you can find a number for this other guy I would be interested in calling him about the blocks.

Thanks, Smokepole50