Lyman Lead Pot = POS...

[Rob FreemanWBR]

I try to keep my comments/threads on the positive side of things, but this afternoon proved to be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

Near and dear to almost every skirmisher is the one "penance" that we all must pay, and that is at the altar of the lead pot. Since returning to skirmishing I still am in search of the "holy grail" of lead pots that will help me cast GOOD rounds. Typically at each session in front of my lead pot I experience about a 60 - 70% rejection rate in what I cast - esp. Hogdson minie's. In most cases I toss my musket rounds to to imperfections found in the skirts of the rounds. Needless to say, casting consumes a lot of my time and is extremely frustrating and equally unrewarding.

Despite trying different holding, and pouring techniques, nothing ever really brought me the needed cure. Fearing that my Lee lead pot was not getting "hot" enough, I broke down and bought another - this time a Lyman. And that's when the wheels came off the cart.

This afternoon I was dealt an unexpected treat when the ball and chain proclaimed that she would take our Princess daughter out to spend more of my hard earned savings. With this windfall of free time I decided to spend it on replenishing my depleted supply of musket rounds, and test out my brand new Lyman lead pot!

So after bidding my blushing bride a fond adieu and helping her onto her broom, I sat down to what turned out to be the shortest and most disappointing casting session in my skirmishing career. While attempting to cast the initial "sacrificial" dozen rounds to warm up my mould, I soon found that the pot was quickly overwhelmed in trying to melt the first several discarded bullets after being cast and dumped back in. My ladled was soon weighted down with layer upon layer of lead on it's neck due to quickly cooling lead, and even the lead around the mouth of the accursed pot allowed a "crust" of un-melted lead to form - as the "P.O.S." struggled to keep the existing lead in a molten state as well as consume and melt the small amounts of lead being introduced back into the furnace. The below pictures hopefully equate to a thousand words.






I see online other larger lead pots for sale. Perhaps I fell victim to the age old "cheap skate" curse of skirmishers - buy cheap, buy twice... Maybe I need to break down and purchase one of these larger, high dollar value pots once and for all.

Rapine pots seem to be some of the best ever manufactured, but they're as common as dragon's teeth.

Anyone out there have any recommendations as to what large capacity pot I should consider next??

As always - MANY thanks in advance for your time and consideration into this nagging problem.

[ms3635v]

Rob,

I have used a propane powered furnace since I started skirmishing in 1979. The pot holds 20 pounds of lead and the temperature remains consistent through out my casting session. I set my mould on the furnace while the lead is melting. Once the lead is at the correct temperature the mould is also ready. I may get one or two throwbacks at the beginning of the casting session. The burner screws onto the top of a 20 pound propane tank and I can make a whole lot of bullets with one full propane tank.

[Fred Jr]

I started using a bottom pour Lee 10lb pot and went through many of them. Two of us were casting and we went through a whole lot of lead. I was told you could not get good minies from bottom pour pots. Finally I went to the 20lb Lyman. I have three of them and I get very nice Hodgdon bullets from them. Don't know what it is that allows me to use them but I will continue with my 3o0+ years of success! Sorry you are having so much trouble Rob.

[henrymstr]

Write or call lyman. Mine would not heat up hot enough either. I returned it, they fixed it. Definatly not hot enough. They will adjust the thermostat. It has to be 800 degrees at max. Other than that, keep the pour sprue clear and clean. Frustrating.......i get it...rcbs is next for me via team mates, but i dont expect the lyman to die anytime soon.... and thats fine too.

Sent from my SM-T217S using Tapatalk

[Mike McDaniel]

I'd rate a 20-lb pot as the minimum. You need the mass of metal to maintain stable temperature.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

Put a little tin in the PURE lead to improve casting. A small amount, roughly one part tin to 60 parts lead won't degrade skirt expansion. Avoid scrap lead unless you know it is really pure.

Open the ladle spout to .250" and the sprue plate to .200". Brownells has 82-degree countersink cutters that will do this. Rub the plate underside on 400 grit to remove cutting burrs so the hole's edge is sharp.

Use a Rotocast immersion thermometer to maintain 750 degrees, NOT hotter.

Keep a propane torch flame on your core pin between removal and insertion.

Tin REALLY helps.

Regards.

Kevin Tinny

[RaiderANV]

POS's????......Maybe. But mine have served me well. I have two 20lb Lyman's and four 20lb Lee's. I actually have them set up one above the other and handles connected so lead from the top pot replaces lead that goes into mold from bottom pot. I add lead to the top pots and bottoms always stay consistent in temp. Wide open mine will all hit 875 degrees and two will hit 950.
I keep them dialed to 825. I sit my molds on top of the pots and walk away during warm up. 30 minutes later it's casting 101 with maybe 3-4 rejects out the gate.
Now I have had a problem child or two mold that required attention by changing sprue hole/angle and maybe polish the bottom of the plate and top of mold( this helps a ton!)
I cast 12 different rounds for all my guns, my kids and new shooters I've gotten in until they get their training wheels off and have zero problems.
BOTH Lee & Lyman have sent me parts for FREE even on pots I told them were 20-25 Years old. If I hit the Lotto I might buy a high dollar pot to cast Maynard rounds only. 🤔

Oh......and I smoke my molds with a candle for a release agent and always leave the last round in the mold. Have molds 30+ years old that still cast great.

[jonk]

I use a lee, but I ladle dip with it anyhow. 20 pound job.

On 10 it gets the metal plenty hot.

The trick to getting a good hodgdon bullet I find is holding the spout of the ladle right up to the mold and then inverting, while maintaining contact. Don't pour into the mold, let the mold suck it out of the ladle. Presuming you're using a lyman dipper with the full spout and not an open top ladle like the lee. But my mold isn't your mold, and every one is different.

I still get rejects, but a lot fewer. Maybe 10% on average. Less on a good day, more on a bad day, but never more than 20%.

As to adding tin to the mix for better fill out, it probably doesn't hurt if it's a small enough amount, but I never found the need. Yeah, I can cast hard lead with zero rejects after the mold gets to temp, so I know the value of it, but I'd rather have rejects than worry that one round will not be soft enough.

I've never gotten lead from fred, but have a similarly verifiablly soft source. It's dead pure stuff.

Now my Moose mould 315 SWC likes to have it poured onto the sprue plate and let it run in. My lyman 575213 likes it poured from about an inch up straight into the hole without touching the sprue cutter.

Molds are like dogs. Each one likes to be pet a little differently but some good practices are universal.

If you dont' have a thermometer, get one.

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

What I use:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Lead_Casting_Furnace_it-162964.aspx?CAT=3902

[bobanderson]

I cast on a Coleman camp stove with a propane conversion and a quart size cast iron dutch oven that holds 20 plus pounds. I preheat the lead and my mould using a Lyman casting thermometer. Once I'm at 700 degrees, I flux the pot with paraffin, skim the dross and start casting.
I very rarely have any rejects and 100 or more minies will come out weighing within a grain.
I use a bottom pour electric pot for round balls and small bullets. You need a big capacity pot and a steady heat source to cast minies. Remember, you only get about 14 old style minies from a pound of lead.

[Harley1247]

I have been casting for over 40 yrs. Round ball, 45-70, minnies, etc. To end all your problems whether U use a propane or electric pot buy yourself a lead pot thermometer. You can monitor the temperature and keep it it consistent. Once you get the pot and mold up to temp. you will cast perfect bullets. I find between 725 and 750 is the sweet spot.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Phil
That looks like at Waage 4757. I use the same one. They are about $100 cheaper directly from Waage
you have to call to order the 4757

[Maillemaker]

I have only ever used a Lee 4-20 pot.

I highly recommend you get a thermometer. This way you can figure out what thermostat setting to set your pot at to achieve a desired, consistent temperature.

My Lee pot will easily take lead up to over 1000F if I let it. I normally cast between 750F-800F.

For the RCBS Hodgdon, I find that when I bottom pour and let the lead hit the sprue plate and then run down the plate at an angle until it falls down the hole into the mold virtually eliminates all casting problems.

I only ladle cast for a couple of British Pritchett molds that absolutely refuse to cast well any other way.

Steve

[rflmskt]

Lou, Waage still sells the K4757 kind of under the table, but as of this evening they cost $216 plus $30 shipping, and there is a one to two week wait because it is a special order item.

I have been muddling along with a couple of $70 Lee Pro 4 20s for many years with no problems. About a year and a half ago I added a Magma Master Caster, which I am still experimenting with.


John Dam
1st MI Vol. Inf.

[gjwarren]

I toiled with two lyman bottom pours & regret the time I wasted compared to the propane furnace and 8 qt pot full of about 30 lbs of lead. I used a big ladle, but found that the small bullet ladle makes better Minnies with no sucker hole. Cast away with a propane furnace my friend. Grant, 8th Va.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[efritz]

I feel your pain, mine just crapped out too. Heating element burned out on my Lyman Mag 20. Had it 35+ years. Called Lyman for repair or repair parts. They don't do that but they did offer a trade in. Their new Mag 25 for $170.oo. I have to send the broken back. That pot lists for $240. Not a bad deal.

[Tom Magno, 9269V]

Rob, sorry you are experiencing difficulty at the pennance pot. I do believe others correctly surmise that you have to have a bit higher mass of molten lead to maintain stable temps when casting at the rates we do at one sitting while continually adding ingots or rejects to the pot. I have been using a Lee bottom pour Pro-4 20lb pot since 1996 without issue. Well, one - it drips from the bottom spout - so I don't use the bottom pour any longer and use a standard ladle from the top. But it works just fine. Lee has a great 'refurbishment' program - you send in your tired equipment with a check for 50% of new (retail) you get a new (or as-new) one back.

["Any Lee product of current manufacture regardless of age or condition will be reconditioned to new, including a new guarantee, if returned to the factory with payment equal to half the current factory list price."]

I have not yet taken them up on it - but my 20 year old pot is still going strong (I just jinxed it). I do on occasion have a second cast iron pot on a plumbers stove (high output LP) when I need to cast lots and lots of rounds in a short time (like Friday before Nationals!). Good luck!

[Des]

I have been using an RCBS for about 40+ years. Large minies require me to use a ladle but the pot has worked flawlessly all these years. The paint is wore off in places but mechanically and electrically it functions as new. When and if it breaks I will replace it with another RCBS

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

I started out casting Minies with a Lyman bottom pour furnace. I still use a Lyman bottom pour furnace for casting hard and relatively small .30 caliber bullets for some of my more modern military rifles. However, for all my skirmish bullets I now ladle pour lead from a 20-lb. pot sitting on a propane stove. The lead flows much faster and fills the big mold cavities much better using the ladle so I get far fewer rejects.

It sounds like your furnace will have to go back to Lyman for a thermostat adjustment but those thermostats eventually wear out and need replacement. Propane furnaces last forever and I only need to refill the 20-lb tank on average once a year. You should consider going to a ladle at the very least even if you must dip from your electric furnace.

Jim Burgess, 15th Connecticut Volunteer Infantry

[ChrisWBR]

Been using an RCBS since 1985, still going strong.



I try to keep my comments/threads on the positive side of things, but this afternoon proved to be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.

Near and dear to almost every skirmisher is the one "penance" that we all must pay, and that is at the altar of the lead pot. Since returning to skirmishing I still am in search of the "holy grail" of lead pots that will help me cast GOOD rounds. Typically at each session in front of my lead pot I experience about a 60 - 70% rejection rate in what I cast - esp. Hogdson minie's. In most cases I toss my musket rounds to to imperfections found in the skirts of the rounds. Needless to say, casting consumes a lot of my time and is extremely frustrating and equally unrewarding.

Despite trying different holding, and pouring techniques, nothing ever really brought me the needed cure. Fearing that my Lee lead pot was not getting "hot" enough, I broke down and bought another - this time a Lyman. And that's when the wheels came off the cart.

This afternoon I was dealt an unexpected treat when the ball and chain proclaimed that she would take our Princess daughter out to spend more of my hard earned savings. With this windfall of free time I decided to spend it on replenishing my depleted supply of musket rounds, and test out my brand new Lyman lead pot!

So after bidding my blushing bride a fond adieu and helping her onto her broom, I sat down to what turned out to be the shortest and most disappointing casting session in my skirmishing career. While attempting to cast the initial "sacrificial" dozen rounds to warm up my mould, I soon found that the pot was quickly overwhelmed in trying to melt the first several discarded bullets after being cast and dumped back in. My ladled was soon weighted down with layer upon layer of lead on it's neck due to quickly cooling lead, and even the lead around the mouth of the accursed pot allowed a "crust" of un-melted lead to form - as the "P.O.S." struggled to keep the existing lead in a molten state as well as consume and melt the small amounts of lead being introduced back into the furnace. The below pictures hopefully equate to a thousand words.






I see online other larger lead pots for sale. Perhaps I fell victim to the age old "cheap skate" curse of skirmishers - buy cheap, buy twice... Maybe I need to break down and purchase one of these larger, high dollar value pots once and for all.

Rapine pots seem to be some of the best ever manufactured, but they're as common as dragon's teeth.

Anyone out there have any recommendations as to what large capacity pot I should consider next??

As always - MANY thanks in advance for your time and consideration into this nagging problem.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

As a follow up to this thread:

First off my thanks to everyone all who took the time to contribute! Many good tips, points, opinions and facts presented.

Special note of thanks to Phil Spaugy for ID'ing the Waage lead pot that he recommended and t which I now am a proud/happy owner of the same. I ordered the pot, listed by Buffalo Arms, via their website. As someone pointed out, it is in fact a Waage pot (pictured), similar to the old Rapines. Great large volume capacity and able to achieve very high temps!


4422


Despite the heat in N. Va the other day, I carved out some time to set up my casting area, and run a batch of musket rounds.

Per my lead thermometer the lead got up well over 800 and I noticed an improvement in the quality of Hogdon's that I cast! As is my habit, I hand inspect every single cast bullet (not just musket - but all). In this recent batch I found that the skirt is still the prime "sore spot" in virtually all of my rejects. After separating the wheat from the chaff I can honestly say that my rejects were lower than previous sessions, down to about 30 - 40% rejected.

I guess I still need to find the "magic" casting/pouring technique. I tried the "mouth to mouth", pouring at an angle, and even "swirling" the lead into the mould by hitting the mouth of the sprue hole with molten lead as it's poured from the hand dipper/ladle. Can't tell for certain which one worked best.

I'm using a steel RCBS Hodgson mould from dad. Doesn't seem "worn out" but I still can't get the mini grease rings to come out "crisply" - yes I've disassembled the mould and cleaned it.

I use soft lead, I don't flux (never had and never saw the need) nor will I add any tin - soft/pure lead is used.

[Tom Magno, 9269V]

As a follow up to this thread:

First off my thanks to everyone all who took the time to contribute! Many good tips, points, opinions and facts presented.

Special note of thanks to Phil Spaugy for ID'ing the Waage lead pot that he recommended and t which I now am a proud/happy owner of the same. I ordered the pot, listed by Buffalo Arms, via their website. As someone pointed out, it is in fact a Waage pot (pictured), similar to the old Rapines. Great large volume capacity and able to achieve very high temps!


4422


Despite the heat in N. Va the other day, I carved out some time to set up my casting area, and run a batch of musket rounds.

Per my lead thermometer the lead got up well over 800 and I noticed an improvement in the quality of Hogdon's that I cast! As is my habit, I hand inspect every single cast bullet (not just musket - but all). In this recent batch I found that the skirt is still the prime "sore spot" in virtually all of my rejects. After separating the wheat from the chaff I can honestly say that my rejects were lower than previous sessions, down to about 30 - 40% rejected.

I guess I still need to find the "magic" casting/pouring technique. I tried the "mouth to mouth", pouring at an angle, and even "swirling" the lead into the mould by hitting the mouth of the sprue hole with molten lead as it's poured from the hand dipper/ladle. Can't tell for certain which one worked best.

I'm using a steel RCBS Hodgson mould from dad. Doesn't seem "worn out" but I still can't get the mini grease rings to come out "crisply" - yes I've disassembled the mould and cleaned it.

I use soft lead, I don't flux (never had and never saw the need) nor will I add any tin - soft/pure lead is used.

Rob - you preheating your mould before casting with it, right? Also, I coat the inside with mould prep/dropout which really helps. You may not think you need to flux, but there are impurities none the less.. just a pea sized piece of lube stirred into the mix will bring out all of the oxides/impurities to the top - then you will have shiny clean metal to work with.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Hey Tom,

Yes I preheat my mould and to be safe/sure, I cast and toss the first dozen bullets to ensure the mould is properly heated.

As for fluxing, I don't drop lube in, but simply skim the surface of the molten lead of all the "crap" that forms and/or floats to the surface. Thus I cast using shiny, clean, molten lead.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

The only time that I have had a lot of skirt defects in my minies is when I used a new custom base plug in a 500 grain new style mould. I have successfully thinned skirts in two other moulds without a significant increase in defects. I thinned the skirt on the Hodgdon, reducing the weight to about 380 grains from 415 without a problem. Since this is not a real deep mould, it isn't usually a problem unless you have really thinned out the skirt or your pour rate is really low. I use an RCBS 20 pound pot, but had equally good results with fairly inexpensive Lee 10 and 20 pounders.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

​Try smoking the mold.

[Eggman]

​Try smoking the mold.

I have a cousin who tried that one time. He ended up thinking he was a racoon.

[Lou Lou Lou]

I use an RCBS dipper with the spout drilled out for more lead flow

[Rob FreemanWBR]

I use an RCBS dipper with the spout drilled out for more lead flow

That Lou - is something I'm considering next - opening the dipper spout just a "tad". Thanks!

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

Enlarging the dipper spout works, BUT:
The enlarged spout opening diameter should match the opening in the sprue plate to prevent a restricted flow.

Minie ball, NOSE pour molds have the sprue plate opening MATCHING the tip/meplat of the casting. So, if you enlarge the sprue plate opening, you have to enlarge the opening IN the blocks, usually by milling to achieve that matching diameter. I believe that John Bly can do this work, because he's milled Lyman Maynard blocks to remove some length. The weight reduction in as-cast Minie weight is insignificant.

For me, with minies, keeping the lead at NO MORE than750 degrees wiith an alloy of 60 parts REALLY pure lead to 1 part pure tin made a big difference. That minute amount of tin really helps fillout and does NOT create skirt expansion issues. AND the tin will remain well distributed in the pot so odd-ball softer or harder castings are not likely IF the pot is fluxed once every half hour. Placing the base plug in a propane flame between castings helped, also.

BEWARE: Heating lead or lead alloys to over 800 degrees releases nasty TOXIC fumes.

Respectfully,
Kevin Tinny

[Chris Sweeney]

Caveat Emptor:

I had 2 lyman thermometers; they read over 100 degrees different when placed in the same pot. One said water boils @325, so take temps with a grain of salt.

I can't get a decent wrinkle-free bullet until the lead is reading 800 ~ 850. who knows what the actual temp is. I use a Lee pot, so the numbers on the dial bear absolutely no relationship to the temperature.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, Chris:

Thanks for sharing the side-by-side comparison. ROTOCAST has an immersion one that works well. They supply RCBS, but theirs is a bit less expensive.

I tested my two ROTOCAST thermometers side-by-side in my Ohio Thermal pots. Both thermometers indicated identical temperatures.

Regards,

Kevin Tinny

[Maillemaker]

I read once, I think in Lee literature but I cannot remember, that what smoking does is it forms a slight insulative barrier between the lead and the mold block. This decreases the rate of heat transfer from the lead to the mold, allowing it to stay liquid for longer while in contact with the mold surfaces.

I think all this really does is help you start casting faster as the mold gets up to temperature. But within 20 or so drops most of the "smoke" is gone anyway. I think if you start with a hot mold there is no need for smoking. I use an electric hot plate or a white gas backpacking stove to preheat my molds.

I'm skeptical of the practice of "fluxing" the lead pot. If you are using pure lead, then there should not be any impurities in the lead to begin with. I suspect that most of the crud that forms on the surface of the lead when you dump "flux" in is just burned up flux. Now it is true that the sides of the lead pot do seem to oxidize and flake off. In addition, the surface of the lead of course oxidizes because of the high temperature and the exposure to air. There is no point in continually skimming off this oxide layer as all you are doing is exposing more lead to the air to in turn oxidize.

However this oxidation does tend to crust up on the sides of the lead pot as the lead level goes down, and so frequently I scrape the sides of the pot with an old spoon and the gunk floats to the top where it can be skimmed off. But I don't think you need any flux to make this happen - all the oxides are lighter than lead and will float to the surface on their own.

Really if you wanted to stop oxidization in your lead pot the best thing to do would be to cut out a piece of sheet metal that fits neatly into your pot and let it float on top of the lead. This will seal most of the surface area of the lead and prevent it from being exposed to the air. Of course you can't ladle pour that way.

I have tried dropping a tiny pea-sized bit of tin solder into my pot and it does seem to help with fill-out and as a bonus your bullets stay nice and shiny instead of turning dark grey. It does not seem to affect the shootability of the bullets.

Steve

[Chris Sweeney]

ROTOCAST or ROTOMetals?

[Kevin Tinny]

Sorry, "metals". Google. Nice 'site. Kevin