Spencer barrel sizes?

[jek279]

Our local museum has a Spencer rifle in what looks to be original. The only thing that confuses me is the outside barrel diameter. It looks like this barrel is a bull barrel. About 1 inch diameter. I wasn't sure if they had barrels that thick at the muzzle. How many barrel sizes were there on this gun?

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello:

Photo's, especially close-up's of the side and front of the muzzle would help. If the curator would permit you, how about taking a measurement and including it with the photo's, please.

The CAS/SSS, Cowboy Action Shooting/ Spencer Shooters Society Forum has some extremely informed Spencer historians. One, "Herbert" has handled several thousand of them and has repeatedly shared documentation not included in Roy Marcot's otherwise definitative Spencer book.

Even with a serial number within the "issued" range, It is possible the item is modified.
Spencers were sporterized; a few during and many after the war.
Some were in 44 caliber and even smoothbore for shotshells.
As far as I have read, none of these variants were "issued" so they would not be SAC approved for
N-SSA skirmish use.

I am sure the N-SSA's Small Arms Committee can add "approved" dimensional info from its files.

Please share what you learn. Legitimate, original oddities arise and info about tem helps all of us.

Thanks and regards,
Kevin Tinny

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

I'm not sure of the spelling but somewhere in my memory i have seen an after market Buffalo Spencer. They were many gunsmith modifications made to these too. Everyone is more familiar with the Sharps modifications but there were many others done too. Alot of St. Louis gunsmith were doing these updates for the Westrn Ho market. Hope this helps.

[John Holland]

It would seem jek279 is referencing a Spencer sporting rifle, and not necessarily made by Spencer either. After the Civil War many Spencer Carbines and Rifles were altered into sporting configurations by numerous gunsmiths around the country. Two of the most prolific were Jacob Harder of Lock Haven Pennsylvania, and J. P. Gemmer of St. Louis Missouri. These alterations, quite often retaining the original .56-56 or .56-50 calibers, were very popular because it gave the hunters of the day the first heavy caliber magazine fed hunting rifles of their day, with ammunition being readily available nearly everywhere.

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks for the info, John:

Yes. Google "Spencer rifle for sale" to view several such sporters.

Please share the SAC approved 1860 Spencer barrel diameters and allowed tolerances at the front of the receiver and muzzle just ahead of a correctly positioned front sight.

Many thanks,
Kevin Tinny

[jek279]

I will try to get more info. I have seen a Hawken Spencer, but this is different. It looks original except for the heavy barrel.

[Curt]

Hallo!

What is the configuration of the gun overall? "Military" rifle or carbine, or a half-stock or full-stock civilian sporter? (A picture would help.)

While the carbine did really well in Civil War sales, and to some extent the rifle did mildly okay.... the Spencer cartridge(s) were under-powered and anemic when it came to the open expanses of the Plains. It lingered on, until Sharps came up with the brilliant idea of altering their percussion line to metallic cartridge (before losing out to the wonders of the .45 "Trapdoor" a few years later.)

As result, there was a minor "glut" of Spencers and surplus oners on the market especially when unpopularity killed off the company in 1867-1868. But, enterprising dealers and a handful of gunsmiths "sporterized" and rebarreled them (with longer, heavy barrels or even octagonal ones) to appeal to the Western hunting market demand-especially in the late 1860's and early 1870's from buffalo hunters.
But it was a temporary thing as the metallic cartridge Sharps and Remingtons eclipsed the "mortar-like" short range Spencer round and the buffalo herds began to thin making close range shots less common.

Curt

[R. McAuley 3014V]

As far as factory production Spencer sporting rifle barrels are concerned, sporting rifles were offered as a 30-inch full octagonal barrel, a 26-inch round (tapered) barrel), each offered in .56-.46 (one of the earliest necked cartridges and an equivalent to the .44-40), while the .56-.50/.52 were typically confined to the 20/22-inch carbine length barrel, and 30-inch rifle barrel. Though not offered by the Spencer factory, there were two groups of post-war conversions of Spencer Carbines to 20-gauge shotguns using the Spencer shot-shell cartridges evidently made for use with the standard carbine and rifle.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,49686.0.html

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Our local museum has a Spencer rifle in what looks to be original. The only thing that confuses me is the outside barrel diameter. It looks like this barrel is a bull barrel. About 1 inch diameter. I wasn't sure if they had barrels that thick at the muzzle. How many barrel sizes were there on this gun?

It is not uncommon to find Spencer Rifles that have been cut-down to carbine length, which when the full-length 30-inch barrel is cut off to make a 20-inch carbine barrel, the resulting muzzle diameter is about 0.815-inches. The M1860 Spencer Rifle that I shoot was indeed one which had been cut to carbine length, and Larry Romano assisted me in restoring it to full length by making me a new 30-inch barrel. Although these were merely my "sighting" shots and not for score, my first three shots at 50 yards during individuals at the National were two 10s an inch apart, and an X between them... all in about a one inch group.

One interesting tidbit for those looking to own either the regulation rifle or sporting rifle, and attempting to make one out of the other. Some months ago, I acquired a receiver for one of the sporting rifles and had tried to thread on the cut-down barrel noted above, and could not get it to fit. The threaded breech diameter was much smaller, and there was no way to make the male threads larger or the female threads smaller. The two simply would not fit together. Later, I spoke with the person who had purchased the original barrel that went with my receiver, and he had similarly found that the threads were too large in diameter to fit his military receiver. Once having acquired the original 30-inch round barrel for my receiver, I had no problem with the fit, and was able to screw the barrel up to within a quarter turn of the factory alignment. So if anyone acquires either an original barrel for one of the sporting rifles, or the receiver, and finds the two will not mate up with their intended military counterpart, this appears to have been done purposefully by the factory to prevent the two versions from being fully-interchangeable.

[Kevin Tinny]

Thanks, Richard:
Good info. As someone said: You can find most anything on a Spencer.

One thing about Romano Spencers:
Larry cuts all his Spencer liners and barrels with the SAME bore dimensions and chambering reamer.
He strongly cautioned me that he does not have a reamer for STARLINE cases.
He said some shooters try to adapt his 50 Maynard bullet to Spencers, but he does not recommend this because the longer, heavier Romano MAYNARD bullet has to be sized excessively to fit the tighter Spencer 56-50 bore.

Anyone have the N-SSA allowable barrel diameters for breech at receiver and muzzle, please?

Thanks,

Kevin Tinny

[Kevin Tinny]

It is not uncommon to find Spencer Rifles that have been cut-down to carbine length, which when the full-length 30-inch barrel is cut off to make a 20-inch carbine barrel, the resulting muzzle diameter is about 0.815-inches. The M1860 Spencer Rifle that I shoot was indeed one which had been cut to carbine length, and Larry Romano assisted me in restoring it to full length by making me a new 30-inch barrel. Although these were merely my "sighting" shots and not for score, my first three shots at 50 yards during individuals at the National were two 10s an inch apart, and an X between them... all in about a one inch group.

One interesting tidbit for those looking to own either the regulation rifle or sporting rifle, and attempting to make one out of the other. Some months ago, I acquired a receiver for one of the sporting rifles and had tried to thread on the cut-down barrel noted above, and could not get it to fit. The threaded breech diameter was much smaller, and there was no way to make the male threads larger or the female threads smaller. The two simply would not fit together. Later, I spoke with the person who had purchased the original barrel that went with my receiver, and he had similarly found that the threads were too large in diameter to fit his military receiver. Once having acquired the original 30-inch round barrel for my receiver, I had no problem with the fit, and was able to screw the barrel up to within a quarter turn of the factory alignment. So if anyone acquires either an original barrel for one of the sporting rifles, or the receiver, and finds the two will not mate up with their intended military counterpart, this appears to have been done purposefully by the factory to prevent the two versions from being fully-interchangeable.

Hello, again:

Please share the different thread specifications for the 56-50 caliber regulation and sporters you have encountered. All I have been told to date is threads from that era were different from those in use today and that tooling to cut them is available, but dies and taps are more expensive.

Larry Romano uses 7/8 X14 threads for his Spencer 56-50. I do not know what Armisport uses, but all Italian drawings are metric.

Thanks.

Kevin Tinny

[R. McAuley 3014V]

All of Larry Romano's Spencer rifles and carbines are unique to themselves, and do not interchange with original Spencer parts. Apparently he chose the 7/8"x14 UNF thread because it is most like the mid-19th century Acme thread, while the Spencer square cut thread is a more difficult cut and is not considered to be as strong as the Acme that offer a tighter fit. Square threads are typically used for vice and clamp screws or other worm-screw forms that require resistance to great pressures. Each thread is the same width as its height, and the pitch is measured by one thread plus one groove. External square threads are cut to the minor diameter plus about .005 inch, while the internal square threads are cut to the major diameter plus about .005 inch. The additional .005 inch allows a small clearance at the bottom of the thread, which helps to compensate for any small inaccuracies in the tool or cutting. Square threads require separate tool bits, one for cutting the external square threads, and one for the internal square threads which cuts at absolutely a ninety degree angle to the work. Larry does excellent work but these threads are precarious to cut with no room for error.

Spencer Sporting Rifle breech thread is 0.96” D x 10 (threads per inch) external square thread

Spencer Military Rifle breech thread is 1.0” D x 10 (threads per inch) external square thread

[Kevin Tinny]

Wonderful example of sharing. Thanks so much. Kevin Tinny