Pedersoli Minie Bullet

[YorkshireMan]

Hi Everyone,
I'm new on here & this is my first post.
I'm based in England & my main interest is in shooting Civil War Ear Firearms & I'd like to start by asking for advice on Minie Bullets.
Does anyone have any experience of shooting with the Pedersoli 620 gr .577 Minie Bullet?
This is one shown next to a very old 'conventional' Minie.
(I've had this one for about 30 years & I'm not sure where it came from)
I've only shot the Pedersoli Minie at short range so far & I'm interested to know if anyone has shot them at longer range.
I'm keen to know how the accuracy & trajectory compare to the slightly lighter conventional style.
The Pedersoli bullet does have a longer 'bearing surface' compared to the nose, to catch the rifling, so this might help with stability.
Any advice or experience of using these would be very welcome.
Thanks,
YorkshireMan :D

[rkel870]

That's going to hurt... on both ends. Even the "conventional" 515-520 gr Minie next to it starts to hurt after a few rounds with a stiff charge behind it. The conventional Minie takes about 40-48 grains of 3Fg powder to make it happy. It will shoot ragged holes, from the bench, at 50 yds with the appropriate charge, which you will have to experiment to find what your particular rifle likes. At 100 yds offhand you should be able to pour those into a 5-6 inch or better group. Goodluck and have fun. That's what I get out of all this black powder business a lot of testing and shooting. I guess it's not all bad then is it? Good Luck

[CAGerringer]

Yorkshire Man,
Jeez! That thing is huge! It's going to take quite a load to get that down range. I've never seen one of these, so I don't know how deep the recess in the bottom is, or how thick the walls are. Both will effect accuracy. It sort of looks like a Lee flat-nosed mold that I have, but even with the increased bearing surface...I haven't been able to make it work for me. Can you send a picture of the rear of the bullet?
Charlie
Old Dominion Dragoons

[YorkshireMan]

Can you send a picture of the rear of the bullet?
Charlie
Old Dominion Dragoons

Thanks to both of you for your replies.

Charlie, a picture of the rear of the bullet is below.

The rifle I have is a Parker Hale Enfield Pattern 1858 '2 Band' Navy. This one is a genuine Birmingham/England made model.
It's in superb condition.

I've been using 60 gr of Swiss FFg equivalent & also 60 gr of Pyrodex Select.
Recoil is 'interesting' but accuracy seams good. I've only managed to shoot 'off-hand' at 25 yards so far & I've attached a target showing the results. I'm really interested to see how these bullets do at 300 to 600 yards. This should be possible in a few weeks.

Cheers,
YorkshireMan :D

[jonk]

The shallow base on that and heavy weight reminds me of a slightly heavier version of the classic British Parker Hale bullet. With that one also, I had to use a fairly stiff powder charge to get it to perform. Different design entirely, but to get a heavy bullet moving enough to stabilize it isn't surprising you need a good powder charge.

I have a 600 grain full wadcutter that is much the same also... no light weight powder charges need apply.

[RaiderANV]

At 25 yards you'd best have them in an inch or smaller group to hope to hit anything at 600yards. I don't see the "longer bearing surface" providing anything to the accuracy with that tiny hollow base. I'd like to see a few you dig out of the dirt backstop to see if rifling is even engraved on that round???

[geezmo]

YorkshireMan,

I can't personally help, having never shot any of my muskets at 600 yards, but I'm sure the folks on the site below can help. You may or may not be aware of them, but they're from over in your neck of the woods. Seems like they know their stuff.

https://longrangerifles.wordpress.com/reference/militaryrifle/

I hope this helps, Good Luck,

Barry S

[YorkshireMan]

YorkshireMan,

I can't personally help, having never shot any of my muskets at 600 yards, but I'm sure the folks on the site below can help. You may or may not be aware of them, but they're from over in your neck of the woods. Seems like they know their stuff.

https://longrangerifles.wordpress.com/reference/militaryrifle/

I hope this helps, Good Luck,

Barry S
Thanks Barry,
I've had a look on the site & it seems really good. Its also given me a few links to get in touch with locally.
;)

[YorkshireMan]

At 25 yards you'd best have them in an inch or smaller group to hope to hit anything at 600yards. I don't see the "longer bearing surface" providing anything to the accuracy with that tiny hollow base. I'd like to see a few you dig out of the dirt backstop to see if rifling is even engraved on that round???
Hi Pat,
I’m fairly happy with the group at 25 yards. It measures 2 inches between the two outside holes. I’d probably do better if I hadn’t been on horseback at the gallop & wasn’t wearing boxing gloves. ;) ;)
Actually, it was shot standing & unsupported, so I could probably expect to at least halve this group size if resting or prone.
These Pedersoli Minie Bullets must be taking the rifling properly, otherwise the conical bullet would be extremely unstable in flight, would have dreadful group size & wouldn’t punch round holes in the target.
In my experience, the small base cavity doesn’t really make much difference compared to the larger ones, particularly with the 5 groove rifling & the 1 in 48 inch twist of the 1858 Navy.
Newton’s (abbreviated) Law of Motion includes - "an object …. remains at rest …. unless acted upon by a force."
When applied to a muzzle-loaded bullet, the ignition of the powder applies a massive & sudden force to the rear of the bullet. The bullet is initially at rest & doesn’t ‘want’ to move. The heavier the bullet is, the greater the resistance to movement.
Being soft lead & relatively malleable, the rear of the bullet will move first & the forward portion of the bullet will act as a ‘block’ to movement, until the forward direction force ‘works its way through’ the structure of the bullet towards the front.
This causes ‘compression’ on the structure of the bullet, which causes it to ‘squash up against itself’ as it begins to move forward.
This is the main force causing the bullet to expand into the rifling & the bigger the powder charge, the greater the force & the more pronounced this effect will be.
The base cavity certainly helps, but is not the only factor causing the projectile to take the rifling.
This is illustrated very clearly by the bullet used in the .451 Enfield Volunteer Rifle. These are typically 475-500 grains with a long bearing surface & a very high mass relative to calibre. It also has no base cavity. However, these bullets still take the rifling excellently with heavy enough loads.
Cheers,
YorkshireMan.

[CAGerringer]

Yorkshire Man,
I was going to say I'd be a lot more comfortable if that cavity was 3 times as deep...but since you've brought Newton into it....

Our shooting is quite different from this. We shoot lighter bullets, with deep cavities and thinner walls, at shorter ranges, 50/100 yards (like meters, only better) with much lighter loads. I shoot 38 grains of 3F in my Lorenz. As a matter of fact, I don't know anyone that shoots 60 grains. But as I said, we aren't pushing out 600 yards either.
Thanks for the physics lesson, the pictures, and good luck.
Charlie
Old Dominion Dragoons

[YorkshireMan]

Thanks Charlie,
Thankfully we still use miles & Yards in England.
Just one of our ongoing attempts to resist domination by Europe. :)
Must admit that with the cost of buying the Pedersoli Minie Bullets, I'm considering buying a Lee or Lyman mould & casting my own.
Which would you recommend?
What velocity are you getting from the 38 3F charge?
Most of the time we shoot at closer range but we do get out to much longer distances a few times a year. This is where I'm wondering if the heavier weight of the Pedersoli 620 Minie will have a major effect on trajectory & the required sight setting.
Cheers,
YorkshireMan.

[CAGerringer]

Thanks Charlie,
Thankfully we still use miles & Yards in England.
Just one of our ongoing attempts to resist domination by Europe. :)
Must admit that with the cost of buying the Pedersoli Minie Bullets, I'm considering buying a Lee or Lyman mould & casting my own.
Which would you recommend?
What velocity are you getting from the 38 3F charge?
Most of the time we shoot at closer range but we do get out to much longer distances a few times a year. This is where I'm wondering if the heavier weight of the Pedersoli 620 Minie will have a major effect on trajectory & the required sight setting.
Cheers,
YorkshireMan.

Yorkshire Man,
The Lyman molds are a higher quality but you need to talk to some of the guys shooting 1858 Enfields, to see what their guns like. As far as my velocity with the light load...I've never chronographed it, but as you can imagine, its very relaxed going downrange.
The link to the long range shooters that you were given by Barry, can give you a more accurate answer concerning bullet drop at the ranges your talking about.
By the way, I stole your Churchill "Fanatic" quote. Thanks.
Charlie
Old Dominion Dragoons

[geezmo]

I too was going to comment on the Churchill quotes. They made me think that we sure could use a few world leaders now of the quality and character that that generation had.

Barry S

[YorkshireMan]

By the way, I stole your Churchill "Fanatic" quote. Thanks.
Charlie
Old Dominion Dragoons

I too was going to comment on the Churchill quotes. They made me think that we sure could use a few world leaders now of the quality and character that that generation had.

Barry S
Definitely agree.
If we had the likes of Winston Churchill & Franklin D. Roosevelt still in power today, just imagine what a better, safer world we would be living in where pride in our Nations & the will to fight to preserve them would be instilled in all of us.
We live in dangerous times my friends & a storm is coming. We will need leaders like these again.

Here are a few Churchill quotes to inspire the patriotic: -


http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2015/04/50-churchill-quotes

[geezmo]

YorkshireMan,

Thanks for sharing those extra quotes. Also, make sure you keep us informed how you make out with those heavy weights on the long range, when you get to try
them out.

I had another thought. Do you know, or know of, Jeff Tanner? Many of us here have bought his round ball molds. Check out his site BallMoulds.com He's got links to Articles and history. One of them is a brief article he did on "Accurizing the .577 Enfield". He doesn't get into projectiles, but mentions that he shoots at Bisley.
Maybe he can give you some insight.

Again, Good Luck and keep us posted.

Barry

[Maillemaker]

Check out the YouTube video by "capnball" (Balazs Nemeth) where he reviews the Pedersoli P1853 and shoots that bullet.

He gets very good accuracy out of it.

I have tried my usual RCBS-Hodgdon skirmish bullet (about 420 grains) in the Pedersoli P53 with lackluster results.

I would like to try that massive bullet in both the Pedersoli P53 and P58.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Check out the YouTube video by "capnball" (Balazs Nemeth) where he reviews the Pedersoli P1853 and shoots that bullet.

He gets very good accuracy out of it.

I have tried my usual RCBS-Hodgdon skirmish bullet (about 420 grains) in the Pedersoli P53 with lackluster results.

I would like to try that massive bullet in both the Pedersoli P53 and P58.

Steve

In comparing the depth of the base of that minie to the government .577 Pritchett, it seems unlikely that it would preform very well at 600 yards. Just like when Whitworth tried to adapt the regulation .577 ammo to his .577 rifles, he found that the bullets performed poorly because the wood plugs in the base of the bullets prevented them from fully expanding into his hex bore, and so he developed a special bullet without the wood base plug that eliminated this problem. When he showcased this rifle at the Gunmaker's Trial in February 1864, it was reported that the competition "was chiefly remarkable for the excellent targets made by a large bore (.577) rifle of Mr. Whitworth. With respect to this weapon, from which great things were expected at that time, the Council say in their Report, ‘The excellent shooting… is to be attributed, in a great measure, to an improved projectile, in which additional length has been obtained without a corresponding increase in weight, by hollowing out the fore part of the ball, and filling the empty space with a wooden plug. The originality of invention of this form or principal of projectile is a matter of dispute, as Mr. Medford claims to have invented and used it before Mr. Whitworth.’”

[(1876) The National Rifle Association, a sketch of its history and progress, 1859-1876, page 58-59]

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii305/rmac1023/Brooks26-BoreWhitworthMould_zps614f3e4f.jpg

[Maillemaker]

As far as P1858 Enfields go, I've got a Pedersoli P1858. It has a 1:48 twist with, I believe 5 grooves. It definitely does not like short, light bullets. It was suggested to use the 575213PH bullet, but mine dropped at .575 and my bore needs a .578. I had a similar old-style Minie (Rapine 577460) mold so I had a custom short core pin made for it to make it similar to the 575213PH. It has performed reasonably well at 50 yards using 55 grains 3F Goex. I also got reasonable results using the RCBS-500M bullet and 60 grains 2F Goex. I'm not quite ready yet to call it skirmish ready as it does not yet beat my P1853 with Whitacre barrel. But I have not yet glass bedded it, either.

RCBS-500M:
http://imgur.com/WWPWbVd.jpg

Rapine 577460 Custom Core
http://imgur.com/fjeHvT0.jpg
http://imgur.com/kZzoYjL.jpg

When I have tried using my standard skirmish bullet, the RCBS Hodgdon, I got keyholes.

I have been told that the Greenhill equation suggests the 1:48 twist should like a heavier, longer bullet, and my testing bears that out.

Steve

[YorkshireMan]

I have been told that the hill equation suggests the 1:48 twist should like a heavier, longer bullet, and my testing bears that out.

Steve
I've heard this theory before. I'm hoping that when I get back to longer range, 400-600 yards, that the heavy .577 / 620 gr Pedersoli Minie will really start to perform. There just remains the question over the trajectory & required sight setting when compared to the lighter & possibly faster conventional weight Minie.
For their Enfield 1858 '2 Band' Navy, Pedersoli actually suggest a 'standard' powder charge of 45 gr (with their 620 gr Minie) with a 'maximum' charge of 80 gr. I'm currently using 60 gr but might increase to 70 gr for longer distance.
I'm using an English made Parker Hale which possibly have the highest quality barrels available for 19th Century repro' rifles. As far as I am aware, these were hammer forged using traditional gunsmith skills & experience built up over generations. The rifling is the 5 groove, 1:48 inch twist.
I'll certainly report back after I've shot at longer range.
Cheers,
YorkshireMan.

[YorkshireMan]

Here is a pic of the Rifle. :)