Longevity of plastic Smith carbine cases

[Hal]

How many shots should you expect to get from the plastic Smith carbine cases? I've not been keeping track, but I had 3 of them split on me yesterday. The first one I noticed was sitting bullet down in a cartridge box and I noticed a split from the flash hole around and partially up one side of the case. After that, I began checking each one before I fired them. Subsequently, I had two more split along their side when I fired them. Like I said, I've not been keeping track of the number of times I've fired each case, but I would estimate that it has only been 5-6 times. I would have expected them to last longer than that. Am I being unrealistic?

[ms3635v]

Since I started putting the hollow brass rivets in the flash hole of my plastic Smith tubes I haven't had any issues. Some of the cases with the rivets have been fired 15 to 20 times and they are still fine. The Northeast Trader, John DeWald, sells bags of 100 for $5.00.

[Hal]

I'll look into that, as that might have prevented the split in the first case that I noticed before firing. But after that, I experienced 2 more failures in the sides of the cases. These splits did not affect the flash hole. They were limited to the side wall of the case.

[jonk]

I haven't had any split, and some of them are probably fired 10 times. I have found that the neck tension gets bad and the flash hole enlarges before they split.

I don't care for grommets. One more expense, and they require wet cleaning of the tubes after every shoot to keep away corrosion. Plus the time to put them in. Plus they restrict the flash channel on a gun that already has iffy ignition; it really needs a hotter cap than what is available these days.

There are a number of resizing tools available that will bring the plastic back to size. My rule of thumb is, when 2f powder starts leaking out the flash hole, toss it.

If you resize after every firing, I could see that leading to split cases quickly.

[marv762]

my son being cheap has shot the same tubes for three years. he just bought new tubes last year.

[Hal]

You guys' experience, plus what I have read on other sites (One said you could expect 100 shots from them), make me wonder if I might have gotten some bad ones. While I'm certainly no expert, I used to work at a place that bought several injection molded parts that went into our product. We had to specify that the injection molding company not put over a certain percentage of "Regrind" (Ground up bad parts, sprues and runners, and such) into the parts we bought. If they did, the parts would be weakened to the point of early failure. I have no idea if that is what is happening with my Smith cases but I could see how it might cause a problem in this application.

I was not aware you could, or even needed to, resize the plastic cases.

[Michael Bodner]

I resize the plastic tubes after I load them. It 'seems' to help when inserting them into the chamber. But that might be wishful thinking. It certainly is not stressing the case or leading to early failure.

My experience shows that the inner diameter of the tube wears to the point that the bullet won't stay in dependably. The flash hole also wears out, but I always put a small hole-punch of waxed paper on the bottom before I load the powder (even new tubes) to prevent leakage...

I use the bullet-holding power of the tube as my only criteria for keep/toss. The waxed paper takes care of leakage regardless of the hole size. I'm estimating between 15-25 uses per tube (?)

BTW: You do NOT need to puncture the waxed paper before use. It burns through easily enough...

If the sides of your tubes are splitting, then you've got bad tubes OR they are too small for the chamber and are expanding too much. I presume your tubes a just under the diameter of your chamber...

Good Luck!!

-Mike

[John Holland]

Hal is correct about the "regrind", which is what has happened to the current generation of black Smith tubes. The original formula used when Roy Shaw first marketed the tubes made a product which was nearly indestructible, and they did not burn out, shrink, or expand. Roy passed away and today the quality of the product has been so denigrated you have to replace them every season. I don't know if this is intentional or not.

[jonk]

Makes buying brass or SS tubes look more attractive. Yeah, they're 4 times as expensive, but cry once and within a few years you're ahead.

As for covering the flash hole, be it with a small sticker outside or wax paper or whatever inside, I tried it. If I were using 3f, it would be needed. With 2f, which is what my gun likes, it isn't for a while. I did find though that the gun's already iffy ignition was made almost impossible by doing so; gun has a clear flash channel and I even opened up the nipple a tad. It's the damned weak caps... even the RWS ones often fail to touch off my sharps or smith, at least one time out of ten. I have a few tins of old copper navy arms caps made in england that go boom instantly and every time, and the old CCI 6 wing ones did too. But, each gun and each flash channel is different, so it's something each shooter needs to work out for himself.

As to sizing, yeah, there are some combo sizing/seating tools out there. I use it for sizing only, when the bullet starts to get loose. While some of the problem is erosion of the case itself, some of it is the swelling of the case. I don't use it regularly as I find it makes seating the soft lead bullet hard, and it reduces the diameter of the bullet 1-2/1000," which may or may not impact accuracy, I'm not sure. But it's a good tool to have.

[Jim Barber]

So am I the only Smith skirmisher left who uses rubber tubes affixed to a metal base? I eventually learned that the rubber tubes need to be replaced. The rubber metamorphosalizes into an unstretchable, steel-like material over a period of years, making loading bullets into them an exercise in thumb torture. Slipping new rubber tubes (cut to length on a lathe) onto the bases (Thanks Mike Rouch!) solved that issue, with minimal expense (again, thanks Mike!)

Perhaps someone with some machine shop tools ought to get rich quick making new metal bases. Mine, which my dad gave me, are of two types. One appears to be brass, the other is a horrific metal which can both rust (when exposed to water) and develop bluish corrosion (when exposed to pretty much anything). I dunno what that metal is. Strange stuff. For those who haven't seen these things, they're a short (~1/2") cylinder with a cup and a flash hole machined into them. They're sized so the rubber tubing friction fits onto them small enough to allow the whole mess to fit inside the breech channel. The brass bases, as near as I can tell, are totally indestructible. I suspect they're rather old, at least 20 years and maybe much older. They never require pliers, channel locks or brute force to remove from the barrel.

Cheers!
Jim B.
Grove City, OH

[John Bly]

Those rubber Smith tubes sound interesting. I've been skirmishing for 33 years and never heard of them. The original Civil War Smith tubes were rubber. I shot a Smith for years with aluminum tubes but since I make Maynard barrels and took a lot flak over the years for not shooting a Maynard, I now shoot a 1st mod Maynard. The Smith is now a safe queen.

[jbarber]

Those rubber Smith tubes sound interesting. I've been skirmishing for 33 years and never heard of them. The original Civil War Smith tubes were rubber. I shot a Smith for years with aluminum tubes but since I make Maynard barrels and took a lot flak over the years for not shooting a Maynard, I now shoot a 1st mod Maynard. The Smith is now a safe queen.
The rubber Smith tubes Jim mentions are actually plastic surgical tubing - Tygon- which has been used since the 60's to fabricate rounds for the Smith carbine. By happy coincidence, the internal diameter of one-half inch accommodates the bullet with a nice friction fit, and the outside diameter fits smoothly into the carbine's chamber. Upon firing, the soft plastic swells to seal the chamber from blow back, thus keeping the breech area clean. Before someone figured out how to machine the metal base inserts, the tubing alone was used with a tapered bottle cork sealing the end. The round was carefully loaded into the chamber with the front "half" of the Smith pointed downward, the cork removed, and the breech half moved upward to lock the gun. This meant that the whole half-inch base of the cartridge was wide open to the cap flash - good ignition, but it sure dirtied up the works!
A story often told about these early open-ended cartridges concerns a recruit who was firing a Smith with a weak locking spring, and who failed to note that it had not securely locked the two halves of the gun together. He fired, the breech blew open, and flames and powder engulfed his face, his hat sailing skyward. As he shrieked and dropped the carbine, Don Wortman (whom some of you old-timers will remember) is said to have exclaimed, "Now, by God, that's a MAN"S sport!" The unlucky chap was not hurt, and Wortman was in the process of being introduced to skirmishing by the late Stan Tweed and Elmer Roselli. True story, dat.

[Maillemaker]

Don Wortman (whom some of you old-timers will remember) is said to have exclaimed, "Now, by God, that's a MAN"S sport!" The unlucky chap was not hurt, and Wortman was in the process of being introduced to skirmishing by the late Stan Tweed and Elmer Roselli. True story, dat.

Bwahahahaha! I just sat here and chuckled at that one in my cube. This is going to be my new saying at skirmishes. :)

Steve

[Hal]

Jim,

Could you post a picture of your rubber cartridge? That sounds like a good idea. I have a small lathe and while it would be time consuming, could probably make a few plugs just to try out the concept. Are the plugs a constant diameter or do they have 'rim' to keep them from going too far inside the tubing? If you could get away with a single diameter and not have to turn the outside, one could just use 1/2" round and drill flash holes and bore a cavity with an end mill and part it off. May be easy enough. I suppose it is a pretty good fit in the back half of the chamber? If not, it would leak between the plug and tube, huh?

I'm new to this. And while I enjoy shooting my Smith, it is pretty dirty handling spent cases. The thought of a cleaner breech is indeed intriguing.

[bobanderson]

I think I was told the metal base was made out of the correct sized copper pipe cap.

Can anyone confirm that?

[Wayne Shaw, 1985V]

Way back in the day we used tygon tubing with cut 45/70 cases in the back. punched out the primes and opened up the flash hole. They worked very good and cheap. Wayne Shaw Harlan's Light SAC

[Michael Bodner]

Wayne,

Isn't the 45-70 case rimmed? How did it work out dimensionally with regards to the brass 'touching' the chamber walls?

I can't visualize this....

-Mike

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

If I remember correctly Jerry Harmon made some and he used base plugs of 45acp cases.

[Michael Bodner]

OK - I get it. The rubber tube basically took up the entire chamber. The brass was just a bottom-installed cork and the rim did not extend beyond the outer diameter...

Neat!!!

-Mike

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

Things I have learned about the "black plastic Smith Tubes"
#1 for the love of all things holy, never, ever, ever, ever wash or soak them in super hot water!
- it does all sorts of wonderfully odd things to the tubes, none of which are consistent, nor good.

#2 put brass rivets in the flash holes
- it gives the flash hole tons of longevity and consistency, most importantly if helps keep a larger amount of powder in the case if you don't seal the flash hole

#3 Don't use the same tubes in different guns, unless the chamber size is the same.
- My father and I figured this out, there were tubes that he had to fight to get into his Smith, and as time went on, there were more and more tubes he had to fight. What we learned is that the tubes were beginning to "fire form" to my larger chamber. My chamber was .657, and my fathers was tight at .652. The lazy solution was that we opened up his chamber to match mine, but not everyone has that luxury.

#4 Don't mess with tape or stickers, use cheap nail polish, the cheapest you can find. Put a small coat across the flash hole and let them dry, sometimes you need a second coat. As long as you have a good nipple and flash channel they go off every time, and burn off the nail polish. If you have an ignition problem you just pop a hole before you put them in your cartridge box.

#5 Size your tubes, that is right, you read that properly. I figured out how to make a sizing die that sizes the tube before you load it, it is a two piece die. I found that sizing the tube after loading caused the bullet to actually swage down sometimes and if effected accuracy.

[Jim Barber]

Hal,

Here are a few pix of the tubes and bases. I have two different types, one with a thin lip on the "cup" and the other with a thicker edge. I have a 3rd style someplace, but I've got most of my carbine rounds loaded up and didn't have too many empties to examine. They're all essentially the same design. My completely random, unscientific study suggests there's no difference accuracy- or ignition-wise between the different styles. Wiser men than I may disagree. I've been shooting my dad's Smith, an original, for a few years now (thanks, dad!) and I've never had a fail-to-fire.

I'm an average-tending-toward-horrible shot with carbine, but every time I bench the thing to boost my bruised ego, proving that the gun is a problem, it shoots very, very well regardless which style of tube I'm shooting. Also, the breech stays pretty clean since the expanding tube prevents solid crud from blowing all over the place at time of ignition.

When I'm loading, I try to remember to segregate the tubes by type-- big vs. small cups-- because they require different amounts of filler. I use corn meal, since it compresses if I put a little too much in.

Enjoy!

Jim B.
Grove City, OH

406040614062406340644065

[John Holland]

It is no less than amazing that with the high level of technology in heat resistant neoprenes in production today, miserly reduction in the quality of what was once the best product on the market has caused us to revert back to where we were 55 years ago! Shameful is what it really is.

[Hal]

Jim,

I really appreciate you going to the trouble to shoot those photos. Thank you very much.

[Jim Barber]

Hal,

No trouble at all! If I had a drill press, a lathe, and a good supply of metal stock, plus a brain in my head, I'd probably be cranking out a pile of new bases. I gather from Those Who Know that it is a very time-consuming, handcrafted sort of process, not easily given to automation. Mine (I use the term loosely, since they're really my dad's) are actually at least 30 years old. So they certainly do last. A few have corroded? Rusted? No idea what some of them are made of. But out of a couple hundred I started with, two of them had to be retired 'cause the flash hole was all crapped out.

As Mr. Holland notes, it is remarkable that the solution many of us are still using was developed nigh on 60 years ago, while the technological replacement for these things (Yeck, I believe, did the original plastic tubes?) has degraded in quality over the years, to the point that they need bolstering with metal inserts to avoid frequent replacement.

I hope I don't end up on the line next to the guy using the old cork-in-the-end-of-a-Smith tube after all this discussion!

Best,

Jim B.
Grove City, OH

[jonk]

Things I have learned about the "black plastic Smith Tubes"
#1 for the love of all things holy, never, ever, ever, ever wash or soak them in super hot water!
- it does all sorts of wonderfully odd things to the tubes, none of which are consistent, nor good.

#2 put brass rivets in the flash holes
- it gives the flash hole tons of longevity and consistency, most importantly if helps keep a larger amount of powder in the case if you don't seal the flash hole

#3 Don't use the same tubes in different guns, unless the chamber size is the same.
- My father and I figured this out, there were tubes that he had to fight to get into his Smith, and as time went on, there were more and more tubes he had to fight. What we learned is that the tubes were beginning to "fire form" to my larger chamber. My chamber was .657, and my fathers was tight at .652. The lazy solution was that we opened up his chamber to match mine, but not everyone has that luxury.

#4 Don't mess with tape or stickers, use cheap nail polish, the cheapest you can find. Put a small coat across the flash hole and let them dry, sometimes you need a second coat. As long as you have a good nipple and flash channel they go off every time, and burn off the nail polish. If you have an ignition problem you just pop a hole before you put them in your cartridge box.

#5 Size your tubes, that is right, you read that properly. I figured out how to make a sizing die that sizes the tube before you load it, it is a two piece die. I found that sizing the tube after loading caused the bullet to actually swage down sometimes and if effected accuracy.


A few places sell the sizing dies. I've had to resize a few.

I wash my tubes at the end of the season. Crud quality of the current plastic aside, I don't see the need to do so more often; I shoot a pretty clean burning mildly compressed load that doesn't overly dirty the cases. I found out as you did, too hot of water is a no no....

I'm against using ANY cover to the base... but then mine shoots best with 2F. Which doesn't really leak once the load is lightly compressed. For those using 3f, and when I tried it, I found stickers to be a real pain... I like your solution.

Bout all I'd disagree with is the rivets in the flash channel. Restricting the flash hole MORE in a gun that's already got a ton of twists and turns to the flash channel isn't something I care to do, and when I tried it misfires were the result. I'd rather replace my cases yearly than have to wet clean them after every shoot to prevent corrosion anyhow, but that's ME... if it works for you, don't mess with it!