question for sac

[ian45662]

How high is the front sight blade on my H&P converted 1816 smooth bore allowed to be?

[Michael Bodner]

I believe that there is no limit on the height of the front site.

14.9.1 SIGHTS (HAND AND SHOULDER ARMS)
Sights may be modified or exchanged according to known changes made by military forces issuing the arm. In addition, modifications may be made to sights as follows:

a. Front sights, except as noted under rule 14.9.1(l), may be modified or rebuilt provided the resulting sight is a metallic blade on an original type base, in the original location for the model of arm concerned, not to extend beyond the base and with no limitation as to height or thickness of blade.

[ian45662]

I was under the impression that the rule was different for smooth bore guns

[Michael Bodner]

Yup, you're correct. The exception as identified in my post was the important rule I missed.

14.9.1 (l) states:

l. Notwithstanding the above provisions, no modifications of any sort may
be made to the original as-issued dimensions, form, nature, or location of
any sights affixed to a smoothbore musket to be used in any smoothbore
competition.

So, with that said, it has to be of original shape, form, and height.

Learn something new every darn day. Now I can go home....

-Mike

[ian45662]

I was looking at other 1816s at nationals at it looks like the front sight on mine has worn down. I was just wondering if I was allowed to raise it back to its original shape and if I can I was wondering what the measurement is.

[Michael Bodner]

I think John Holland will have to give you a definitive answer.

Good Luck with the repair.

[ian45662]

how do i contact him?

[Michael Bodner]

Contact him via a personal email here on the N-SSA site. His user name is 'John Holland'.

Or wait a day or two - I'm sure he is still returning from Nationals and has just not had the chance to see your email yet.

-Mike

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

On an 1816 H&P it is listed as follows: Front Sight – On forward strap of front band, pinched or low shoulder approx .250” high

On an 1835 H&P it is listed as follows: Front sight – Original brass blade on forward strap of front band, 0.125” high

Hope this helps

[ian45662]

Sorry if this sounds stupid but how is that measured? Do I take the band off and measure from the inside of the band that touches the barrel to the top of the blade?

[ken chrestman]

Make sure you are aware that the ONLY approved H&P for smoothbore competition is the H&P Type II!

Regards;

Ken Chrestman Forrest Escort Co. 7147V

[ian45662]

I am not sure what kind it is but it has already been inspected and has a card and all that good stuff I would just like to be able to hold it in the center of the target rather that an inch or 2 below the clay bird. I want to make sure I am able to bring the sight up and keep it legal.

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

it is the height of the blade itself, not from the bottom side of the band it is the top side that you measure from.

[Big Hat 120]

I also shoot an H&P. I don't believe the sight can be altered in anyway. It's the reason it had to be inspected at all. Original guns typically don't need to be inspected unless they have been altered. In the case of sighted smoothbores however, when the SAC inspects them the take careful sight measurements and that is where your sights shall remain. I would not alter sights without getting an offical rule from SAC.
Dave

[John Holland]

Joe and Dave - Well done replies, thank you.

The dimension that Joe gave is directly from the SAC Inspection Sheet, and is a compilation of quite a number of arms studied that appeared to have not had the front sights altered. The SAC Inspection Sheet was created when the N-SSA Board of Directors decided to regulate the, at the time, newly created Smoothbore Match. The match is designed to be the only match in the N-SSA where the arm is to be used as issued. The Small Arms Committee has an ongoing project studying the front sight heights on the sighted H&P type altered M-1816 muskets. There is a little known variant done at the Frankford Arsenal that seems to have a slightly higher front sight than the H&P types. When the study is complete I will revisit the 1816 altered arms and include the information in an article in the Skirmish Line magazine.

As for those who don't want to use "Kentucky windage", I'm sorry, but that is the spirit of the game. There are many who have bent their barrels to point of aim. In doing so, remember that you are bending a soft iron barrel with a seam, be gentle as it bends quickly. If you are bending the barrel of an ArmiSport reproduction you can be a bit more aggressive as they are armory steel machine gun grade barrels. Note there is quite a bit of difference between iron and steel barrels. The old iron barrels are not tough at all in comparison with the new modern steel barrels.

Sincerely,
John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee