new 575494 mould question

[46thDoug]

Here is my question and I think I am on to a solution but if any of you have experienced this please give me some pointers. I am just starting up and bought a couple moulds here on the forum and elsewhere. I made my first batch of bullets and tried to run the same size and weight bullet that the owner of the musket was running but my results are not the same. He used a Rapine mould and I am using a Lyman (575494) mould. Both are 575 315grain Minnie balls and weight in the same on my scale. This past weekend I took the musket out and the old rapine bullets shot really good groups, but when I shot the Lyman mould bullets with the exact same powder charge there was not any consistency. Some went right 5 inches, dropped 10 or more inches etc.. Very frustrating. I was stumped but I may be new to this black powder stuff but not new to shooting, so that is when I noticed the skirts were different. The Rapine mould was thinner than the Lyman. Thought provoking, I am thinking if I add powder this could rectify the situation. I am thinking that I am not using enough powder to expand the skirt to engage the rifling, due to the thicker skirt. I am using 45 grains of 2f GOEX. I was thinking of playing with powder from 48-55grains. Have anyone used this mould with great success, and if so about how much powder did this bullet like. Am I on the right track?

Thanks
Doug

[Carolina Reb]

Are you casting with reasonably pure lead? 45gr of FF should be enough to expand those light bullets. An easy test to see if your bullets are too hard is to try squeezing the base. If you can squeeze the base out of round with your hand (one hand, not both), your bullets are soft enough.

[Michael Bodner]

Ditto on the lead pureness. Where did you get your lead? Although a higher charge 'might' help, it will be very difficult if the lead is too hard....

BTW: What type / make / model of Musket are you using?

Also, why 2F? Most folks (but not al) use 3Fg for musket.

-Mike

PS: Them boys on the 46th are a nice bunch. If you come to Winchester, you'll be camping next to us (Palmetto Sharpshooters)... Welcome aboard!

[gemmer]

Are you sizing the Lyman bullet? If so, to what diameter, compared to the Rapine. What size are you getting from the Lyman as cast? My Rapine .575/315 throws a bullet that is requires sizing, while some Lyman moulds I've seen cast slightly undersize. Is your lube the same as what's on the Rapine bullets?

[Phillip Kearny]

I shot this bullet style in my Harmon/Large with great success. I found a snug fit .0005 to .001 under land inside diameter and a stiff lube with a higher wax content.. This along with 36.5 weighed grains of GOEX FFFG was very accurate.
Phil

[46thDoug]

Ditto on the lead pureness. Where did you get your lead? Although a higher charge 'might' help, it will be very difficult if the lead is too hard....

BTW: What type / make / model of Musket are you using?

Also, why 2F? Most folks (but not al) use 3Fg for musket.

-Mike

PS: Them boys on the 46th are a nice bunch. If you come to Winchester, you'll be camping next to us (Palmetto Sharpshooters)... Welcome aboard!

I bought 99 percent pure lead, and I can sink my finger nail in it fairly easily. The rifle is a. 1855 Springfield with a Hoyt barrel. I do not own this gun and I am using 2ff because the owner said to. I do size all bullets through a 575 lyman lube sizer (spg lube). I know the owner uses a combination of beeswax crisco and something else. I can make skirt out of round the cavity a bit with one hand and accidentally dropped one off my bench and collapsed the side of the skirt on impact site. I am stumped, till I take it out again. I used this same lead on the Maynard and it ran great.

[Lou Lou Lou]

You could consider having a new base plug made up to thin the skirt a bit. I did that with my RCBS 500M

[Eggman]

A fun little toy to have at a low price if you search the Internet is the Lee hardness tester. It has a dent maker and a little spy glass to measure the dent. Pure lead (like 99%) maxes out the calibration scale imprinted into the tiny scope, i.e., allows the biggest dent. Once you establish the lead you like for each gun you can calibrate the lead hardness for that particular bullet and use the tester to ensure consistency. In my experience the tester is completely reliable - gives the exact same reading each time on a particular sample of lead.
Lyman minies do tend to have a thick skirt. Try that Lee traditional minie - I love it - big long thin skirt. VERY CHEAP. I've used mine for twenty years and even set it on fire once.

[46thDoug]

I appreciate all the insight and open to any other suggestions out there. I will continue to work through this issue with your suggestions and see if I can get this worked out.

[ms3635v]

I had the Lyman and the Rapine 315 semi-wadcutters. The Rapine shot far better that the Lyman, even after playing with powder charges. As with any other bullet, I sized at .001" under bore size. In the end I found the Rapine bullet shot far more consistently (won a few National medals with it) than the Lyman, so I sold the Lyman mould. I shot the Rapine bullet for a lot of years. Most recently, I bought the Moose Mould version of this bullet (they come out of the mould at the advertised weight and the diameter is dead on). This bullet shoots very well with 42 grains of GOEX 3F and I use MCM lube from Northeast Trade. I can shoot an entire match and only clean after the last shot is fired. I know for some shooters range time is hard, but, in the end if your rifle/musket is in good condition and you take good care of your equipment you can find a combination that works the best for you. I've been shooting in the NSSA since 1979, and I will admit I did my share of tinkering.

[46thDoug]

Ok, found out my lead is not soft enough. I will be more educated next time I buy lead. Is there a place near Winchester, VA where I can get soft lead or anybody in the area willing to sell some so I can possibly shoot at the early bird? Any help would be great.

[Michael Bodner]

At Nationals, almost every year you can buy Fred's Lead. Watch this bulletin board as we get nearer to May - Fred will advertise price.

Often other folks are selling lead too.

For NOW, your best bet is to ask a teammate for some pure lead that you will either pay directly for OR replace with Fred's lead. That's why you have teammates - You're never alone in the N-SSA...

-Mike

PS: If you're more local to Winchester (than Illinois), then put up a post say "Lead Needed for a new Skirmisher". You'll get LOTS of help from many good people...

[John Bly]

If you are near Winchester, I've got soft lead and will sell you enough to get you by until you can get more. I sold 3 tons last year but don't have any left except what I've melted down to use. Send me a PM.

[Maillemaker]

I bought 99 percent pure lead, and I can sink my finger nail in it fairly easily.

...


Ok, found out my lead is not soft enough.

What made you think your previous lead was 99% pure? Where did you buy it?

Steve

[46thDoug]

It was advertised as 99 percent pure lead online. I do not have a tester, so I think I got burned on it. Unfortunately I am overly trusting of others word.

[Eggman]

Well this can of worms keeps getting pried open a bit more, and then a bit more yet. Don't count on what you see at the national to be what it says either. I got a really good buy on 150 lbs of "pure" lead from one of the top vendors there. It turned out the minies tumbled badly, so obviously there was a fly in the ointment. Eventual testing with ye Lee hardness tester yielded a result of about three-quarters hardness on the hardness scale. No worries - this lead makes great bullets for my Maynard and Spencer which I expend in vast quantities. A little harder lead here is desirable because the bullet is forcing its way thru rifling and you surley don't want it to strip.
I bought another supply about a year ago in these rather large like 10 lb blocks. The lead was NICE AND DARK GREY like the "pure" lead should be (nice silver ingots or ingots with streaks of silver are very dicey). Got it home and it tested perfect on the Lee tester.
So my thinking is check this BB for vouchability of the various suppliers, or if shopping on site BRING YOUR TESTER ALONG.

[John Bly]

That lead I sold last year in 26 lb bricks was 99%+ pure. I tested it and it is dead soft and everyone who has reported back to me is satisfied with it. There is more available where I got that but the 26lb. bricks proved a little tough to sell as most people could not melt it down in that big of a chunk. I would need to get another 6000lbs to come out on expenses.

[jonk]

Ah yes, the "PURE LEAD" advertisements that lie. I've fallen victim to those.

Get yourself a hardness tester and an alloy of known hardness (pure that is) and see the result. Then test any lead you might buy against that. Any lead I buy that is supposedly pure gets tested. The exceptions being someone I know selling lead, like Fred (mentioned already) or a few other guys I have come to trust.

The good news is, your almost pure but too hard lead is not garbage. Someone would love to buy it up for carbine, smoothbore, or what not, or trade you.

If it were me I'd still try upping the powder charge a bit and/or trying 3f and see what's what before I wrote it off. When I was working up a hunting load for a musket (pre nssa days, didn't know of them then) I found that with a 575213, 80 gr of FFG was needed to get accuracy. Turns out the 'pure' lead was about 20:1. But enough oomph, it worked just the same.

Otherwise, sell or trade it. Or, if you get into sb (if you haven't) try it in that.

[Chris Sweeney]

The problem with the mold in question is the thickness of the skirt. On molds with thinner skirts you can get away with minies that are SLIGHTLY hard. With that one you absolutely need softest lead and a decent charge of FFF to get it to fill in the lands.

Another problem I've encountered with that mold: I bought one new and when I got it, the center plug was visibly non-concentric (skirt thicker on one side than on the other). Sent it back and the replacement was almost as bad. Made my SNWTC group like my Model 12 Winchester!

[Harley1247]

I would switch over to 3F and of course your bullet must be a thousand under bore size. In experimenting with different loads I have found that using Crisco in the base causes the bullet not to be as accurate. I no longer use Crisco in the base and I don't have any fouling problem or lose accuracy. There is a group in England that all they shoot are the Parker Hales and they even said not to use Crisco in the base. That bullet should shoot with 3F between 46 to 48 grains. U just have to experiment which could be very frustrating. Hope this helps.
Good luck

[Eggman]

of course your bullet must be a thousand under bore size.
Good luck

Please let me add my "Good Luck" with this combo. Please let me know where you are on the line so I can watch you attempt to load your fourth or fifth shot. My experience is that folks attempting to ram down this tight of bullet after one or two shots resemble Dutch milk maids churning butter.

[Harley1247]

Funny I won a lot of medals shooting this way and broke a lot of targets without cleaning. To each is own.

[jonk]

Yeah I second that. I size 1/1000 under bore size, and can run all day without cleaning. I DO clean, but the bullets slip down fine if I don't.

In fact, if I size more than 1/1000 to 2/1000 under bore size, fouling builds up more and then we run into the "ramming like a Dutch milkmaid churning butter" effect.

This with 3 different guns.

In my opinion, folks who have issue after 5, 6 rounds with a properly sized bullet have one of three problems going on.
1. Bad lube.
2. Not enough lube.
3. Rough bore.

I mean, I'm guilty as charged too. Day was I thought crisco and beeswax was great. Teammate finally got me off of it and I found suddenly the gun loaded easier and shot better. I think a lot of guys who experience loading difficulties are having their lube break down but because it's what they always have used, are sure that it's just fine.

[ian45662]

I used a pin gauge to figure out what to size my bullets. In my Mississippi a 437 pin gauge fits in the bore so that's what I size my bullets to. My Zouave and Whitney will take a 576 pin gauge so that's what I size them to. No trouble at all ramming bullets no matter how many shots fired.

[ms3635v]

I have been skirmishing since 1979 and was handling civil war muzzleloaders since 1977. I shot with some of the best in my first few years, like Rich Stambaugh, Ed Dillon, Ken Schiller, and many other top shots in the Middle Atlantic Region, and one of the very first things I was told was that the minies needed to be .001" (1/1000) under bore size and soft lead to get the best and most accurate results. I guess those guys knew what they were talking about, you can't argue with success. Ian, thank you for your post, I'm glad others have similar experiences.

[Eggman]

Well you can't argue with success. I know I certainly can't run tolerances that close with my muskets which both have stock Itallian barrels. I'm wondering if the barrel internal architecture might be a factor. Am I correct stating the custom barrels have deeper (and sometimes more) grooves which theoretically would allow more room for carbon build up? This might also account for the heavier loads you guys always recommed vs. my own-- i.e., more pressure needed to properly engage the rifling.

[ian45662]

The guns a I'm shooting have progressive depth rifling. That may be one reason I can shoot mines. that are so close to bore Diam. The 58s I have are 3 lands and grooves while the miss is 7 grooves I think. It may not be progressive depth but the 58s are for sure. They are all Hoyt liners.

[ms3635v]

Whitacre's barrels are 3 lands and grooves, 1" in 72" twist rate and are progressive depth. The groove depth, based on my measurements (if anyone knows the correct depth, please feel free to do so), is about .003" deep. Hoyt's barrels are multi-groove, but I can't answer about how deep the groove depths are on his barrels. We have members on our team who shot both Hoyt and Whitacre barrels, and all shoot very well and the members who are shooting both makes seem to have no issues with fouling problems.

[ian45662]

Me 58 Hoyt barrels are 3 L&G but 1:60 twist.

[46thDoug]

Thanks for everyone's input, I shot individuals today at the early bird and that soft lead performed very well. Now I can work on my follow through and we should be good.

[Carolina Reb]

Mike, the Springfield spec is three equal width lands and grooves, grooves 0.015" deep at the breech and 0.005' at the muzzle, 1 in 72 twist. Bobby will cut that. He has done several for me. The last Springfield spec barrel he did for me shoots one hole groups at 50 yards.

[ms3635v]

Carolina Reb,

My buddy and I were just at Bobby's shop on Thursday dropping off a Pietta Smith barrel to be relined and we had a great discussion about cutting rifling, twist rates, groove depth, etc.