Minié Ball Help - Parker Hale 1858 Enfield

[Semisane]

This is my first post here guys. I'm a dedicated shooter of muzzle loaders - flintlock & percussion with round balls from .32 to .58 - but I have no experience with muskets and Miniés.

Last October I acquired a really nice 1858 Enfield by Parker Hale that I've yet to shoot (hunting season and life got in the way ;) ).


http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/NavZepol/Parker%20Hale%201858%20Enfield/A_zpsbybxamkb.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/NavZepol/media/Parker%20Hale%201858%20Enfield/A_zpsbybxamkb.jpg.html)


Now, as March approaches the weather down here in S.E. Louisiana is going to get mighty nice for spending a day on the rifle range. So I'm getting ready.


A Rapine 577460 mold came along with the gun.


http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/NavZepol/Parker%20Hale%201858%20Enfield/N_zpsmmzykuje.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/NavZepol/media/Parker%20Hale%201858%20Enfield/N_zpsmmzykuje.jpg.html)


So today I cast a bunch of Minié balls and did a quick quality control sort with a digital scale. This is what I got.


http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/NavZepol/Parker%20Hale%201858%20Enfield/Rapine%20577460%20Mold_zpssrdsixhn.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/NavZepol/media/Parker%20Hale%201858%20Enfield/Rapine%20577460%20Mold_zpssrdsixhn.jpg.html)


Somewhat to my surprise, the "460 grain" mold threw balls in the 490 grain range with pure soft lead. I figure I have 52 very good quality balls and another 21 to use for sighting in, plinking, etc.


Now here's my dilemma. Those nice shiny Miniés are averaging .584 diameter and won't enter the muzzle of the gun. I slugged the bore and get something around .581 (it's hard getting a precise reading on the slug with five lands and grooves).


As I understand it, for a gun like this I want the Miniés to be about .002 under bore size. If that's correct, .579 would be about right.

A 37/64" drill bit is 0.5781 diameter. Would it be feasible to use a 1/2" Hex Nut, drilled out with a 37/64" bit to make a sizing die for those bullets, and use my bench top drill press as a press to push the bullets through the die?

[Fred Jr]

Sure won't hurt to try. I use an RCBS mold and only need to size about a thousandth off them. I know you can size more than that and not damage the bullet. One thing that is very important with minnies is to make sure you have pure lead. You should have a push rod that fits into the cavity and doesn't damage it. Hope that helps some. My Enfield has a custom barrel but when I used a PH 1853 with the PH barrel it really liked a heavy bullet with a shallow base. I don't bother to weigh my bullets. Did a few times and I didn't think it made any difference! maybe I'm just lazy!

Good luck and enjoy

Fred

[Semisane]

Thanks for the reply Fred. They're cast from really nice soft lead from recovered roof jacks. And I can make a push rod to fit the cavity with no problem.

The cavity is 5/16" deep and the skirt looks pretty thick to me. But I really know little to nothing about Minies. Is that deeper than I want? I can change the profile of the base plug in the mold if I have to.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/NavZepol/Parker%20Hale%201858%20Enfield/490%20Grain%20Minie_zpsw7tuix8k.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/NavZepol/media/Parker%20Hale%201858%20Enfield/490%20Grain%20Minie_zpsw7tuix8k.jpg.html)

Assuming I end up with a bullet well suited to the gun, what kind of 100/200 yard accuracy should I expect with a gun like this. I'm used to 2.5" 100 yard groups with my .58 Hawken with a Green Mountain barrel and peep sights.

[ian45662]

Lodgewood can sell you a sizing die to make them smaller

[Lou Lou Lou]

You might want to consider turning a new base plug to make the skirt thinner. We have a member in LA who is knowlegable. Don't know if he is close to you

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the BB. Generally, the Parker-Hale series have .577 barrels, which is what the originals had. I have a 1853 (3 bander), a 1858 (2 bander) and a 1861 (musketoon). I used Minies sized to .576 in both the 2 bander and the musketoon. Haven't fired the 3 bander yet.

Many rifle muskets are capable of 2.5"-3" groups at 100 yards. I wish I was still able to shoot that tight. :(

[John Holland]

IMHO, I wouldn't worry about the base plug yet. Shoot it first, as the skirt doesn't look too thick to me, it might work just fine. If the skirt is too thin it can blow out as it exits the muzzle when using heavier than target loads, such as for hunting.

[Maillemaker]

I have been told that the fast twist of the P1858 makes it like heavy bullets. My own experience in trying to get my Pedersoli P1858 to group has corroborated that claim.

I tried to use the RCBS-Hodgdon bullet in it, which I use in competition with my other rifled guns, but it keyholed.

But using the RCBS-500M sized to .578 using 60 grains of 2F Goex, I have a target in front of me with 5 shots in a clover-leaf arrangement at 50 yards off of a bench.

I believe a stout charge was needed because the RCBS-500M has a thick skirt.

The Lyman 575213PH is supposed to be ideal for the Parker Hale. It has a truncated cone base plug which results in a heavier bullet than with the full-cone cavity. I bought one, but it did not drop at a large enough size for sizing to .578. I bought a 575213OS mold and had a custom core pin made for it to give me the truncated cone with more weight, plus a thinner skirt. Initial tests seem promising.

I do my sizing using a Lyman Lubrsizer and dies from S&S firearms. For a lower-cost option, Lodgewood and others make a push-through sizer that you can chuck up in a bench vice and push the bullet through using a wooden dowel.

Steve

[CAGerringer]

Mr. S,
Try the 579 or 580 sized Minie's and you will find you do much better. Work up and down from 42 grains of 3 F powder loads...and you will do better, still. It's all a matter of working out the combo that's best for your gum. Start with getting the bullet as tight as it can be...and then figure out what powder measurement will work best. Believe it or not, every gun is different. This is the easiest and most direct way of figuring out what load is good for you. It's not Rocket Science.
Respectfully, Charlie
C.A. Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[Jim Barber]

Mike Rouch sells some pretty sweet titanium sizing dies, reasonably priced. You can drop him at line at miamivsutler(at)aol.com

Cheers
Jim B.
Grove City OH

[Semisane]

Thanks for all of the information, advice and suggestions guys. I ended up ordering a .580 push through die from Lodgewood (http://www.lodgewood.com/Push-Thru-Sizing-Die_p_491.html). It will certainly be better than anything I could fabricate and should allow me to get some bullets down the bore.

Another question (I told you I know nothing about Minies) - do you push them through the die nose first or base first?

I'll post a report of my first range session with the gun whenever that happens (hopefully with some really impressive target pictures ;) ).

[Muley Gil]

"...use my bench top drill press as a press to push the bullets through the die?"

I use a drill press to size my Minies, using a push throuh die.

[gemmer]

I'd take that 37/64 drill bit and see if it fits in the bore. My understanding is that Parker Hales are pretty consistant at .577. I see that you ordered a .580 sizing die.

Duane

[mikea]

I have the same English made Parker Hale rifle (2 band )as you have as well as their Rifle Musket (3 band). Mine have .577 bores and I have never heard of any of this series made there that were not .577 (land to land - not groove to groove). I use the Lyman 575213 molds (P-H and New Style) and both work well with PURE lead bullets sized .575 or .576. The difference in them is in the base plugs. The Rapine mold should produce bullets that will work well also.
The general rule here is that the bullet needs to be at least .001" less than the bore diameter to load in a fouled barrel, and more than .003" less results in loss of accuracy.
I would follow gemmer's advice and try the 37/64 drill bit in the bore (37/64 = .5781). If it barely or almost fits then you have a .577 bore. If it slides in easily then you have a replaced barrel or it is an Italian made gun
These English made Parker Hales are excellent guns - probably the best repros made - good luck with it!

[Semisane]

Pretty sure it's an original Birmingham PH barrel mikea. Here are the barrel markings.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb264/NavZepol/Parker%20Hale%201858%20Enfield/K_zpsqxerz5qu.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/NavZepol/media/Parker%20Hale%201858%20Enfield/K_zpsqxerz5qu.jpg.html)

As I mentioned in my OP, I slugged the bore and get a slug that measures something around .581. That would likely be a "land to groove" measurement because of the five lands and grooves. I have no way to accurately measure the grooves, but they are very shallow.

[Muley Gil]

"...do you push them through the die nose first or base first?"

Nose first. I catch them in a padded container.

[Lou Lou Lou]

I use the threaded dies in loading press. North East Traders sells a "pusher" that fits the ram and you put the minie on the pusher and it comes out the top of the press.

[Jim Barber]

Or you can put the die in a vise and use a hammer to whack the minies through (nose first) driving them with a dowel in the base of the bullet. Also a cut-off piece of aluminum tent stake works well as a ramming device.

There's no problem that can't be solved with a hammer.

Jim B.

[Semisane]

There's no problem that can't be solved with a hammer.

That's what I thought Jim, right up until that time I got a tick on my privates. Then I rethought the philosophy.

I'm making a rammer that's form fitted to the Minie base with a three inch long 1/4" hex bolt. Put a dab of J-B Weld on the head of the bolt and insert it into the lightly oiled base of a Minie until the J-B hardens.

[hobbler]

Semisane,
You can get pretty good read on the bore diameter by using the soft cast un-sized minies.
Use the rifling grooves as a machining tool. Grab the minie nose with a pair of channel locks and slowly screw the tail of the minie into the rifling, letting the rifling machine down the surface of the skirt. After doing about half a dozen or so of the minies and getting the feel for the process and a few examples to check, measure the turned down body diameters of the bullets. After doing a number of them and determining what appears to fit the bore you can have a pretty good indication of the diameter needed.

[Semisane]

Thanks for that suggestion hobbler. Simple and makes perfect sense.

I'm getting .5795 with that method.

[campchair]

Very new to this thread, but here goes. I have a 2-band Parker-Hale Enfield in pristine condition. I purchased it new from the first importer, Jana Sports in approximately 1972. I'm the only owner and still have the cloth patch and instruction book that came with it. (Wish I has bought the Dixon pewter oil bottle and patch box advertised in the back of the book...) It has a 4 digit serial number, under 1300. It was never really fired, except with blank loads, and I used it mostly in talks to local schools back when that was permitted (.....Don't get me started...) I have always maintained the bore, cleaning it immediately after firing with boiling water and scrubbing it out with a PH nylon 20Ga. brush. The bore is still like a mirror. I had a job for many years that allowed me only snatches of time between business trips, and the nearest place to shoot was about a 2 hour drive away. I never did get around to working up a load for it. Along the way, I acquired a Lyman 57730 mould, and since retiring, I wanted to see what it could do. I've re-located and a range is about 5 minutes from my home. I had the idea I might join a local NSSA group, so I took my old PH put to see what it could do.

I cast up about 50 of the 57730 Minie bullets out of pure lead, and loaded with 60 Gr. of Goex FFg. started at 50 yards, sparked with RWS caps. 3 shots - No hits. Loaded again. 3 shots - no hits. I hunt with a .50 Cal. Dixie flint "Mountain Rifle", and regularally shoot modern rifles up to and including .375 H&H. Most days on this same range, same distance, I can get clover leafs with my mountain flinter. I moved to 25 yards, and at that range, I finally realised it was shooting high......about 38 inches high. The groups were tight, several 3 shot, all touching, but I had to place an "aiming point" (white rock) on the ground under the target frame.

I've investigated the trajectory, checked the barrel. The bore is straight. Friend has a modern NC equipped machine shop. We used a plug gauge to determine the bore I.D. (.5773") and centerless ground a 12" long steel bar to .5770+-.0003", tapped 1/4 X 20 at one end. When lowered into the bore on the end of a suitable rod, it was a free fit, so no bent barrel. The breechplug is centered (measured with a good dial caliper) in the barrel rear implying the barrel is not bored off-center.

Any idea what is wrong? I've heard these early PH Enfields are capable of very good accuracy. Were there some that had some inherent problems that got by final inspection? I remember they were made using the original gauges, and I believe this included a precision fixture for inspecting the front and rear sights to ensure they were properly installed.

My calculations using the 22.25" sight radius of the Enfield indicates a rear sight depression of about .960" . Something is very wrong here. I need some expert help, and I figure this is probably where the "Experts" (Really!) are. Any ideas?

[John Holland]

Your lowest sight setting is for 100 yards, so it is expected to be high at 50 yards. I would try reducing the powder charge to about 45 grains and then work up...or down...from there for 50 yard accuracy.

[ms3635v]

My first skirmish firearm was a two band Parker Hale Enfield that I bought in 1977. I shot the Lyman old style minie in it with 45 grains of 3F (DuPont powder back then). I installed a taller front sight and got it shooting. I never had a problem with that rifle. I used it of about five years, but I was able to buy an original Trenton Springfield and I used that because the drop in the stock made it more comfortable to shoot. Otherwise the Enfield performed very well.

[CAGerringer]

Campchair,
The only thing these guys left out is where to get that tall front sight you're going to need. Look at S&S Firearms web site at part #s 58S148 and 58S148A. One can be soldered on while the second is dovetailed in place. The first is easiest, but the second can be adjusted.
Have fun,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[William Schoenfeld, 1386]

I have a Pedersoli 58 and I use a Rapine 575510. I put a front sight on it and found out that when I was done with adjusting it it was slightly taller than the original one on musket. I also use a push through sizer but I use the rig that Ray Rapine was selling about 20 years ago. I resize mine to 576 and use 42 grains of FFF powder. Groups well and I use the first elevated level on the rear sight.
Dutch

[Lou Lou Lou]

Semisane
If you post your location, somebody nearby can reach out to you.

[Maillemaker]

finally realised it was shooting high......about 38 inches high.

Not surprising to me - all of my reproduction guns shoot high. I have had some people say they have had reproductions shoot point of aim, but none of mine do. Even if you hold the tip of the front sight deep in the V groove of the rear sight.

Most people put a taller front sight on.

Steve

[campchair]

Semisane
If you post your location, somebody nearby can reach out to you.

I'm located in Oxford, Alabama. I have a 577213OS mould, but haven't had time to do much more casting. I know about the Parker-Hale base plug design Lyman has on their PH mould. I contacted them and may have PH style plugs made for each of my moulds, but I hate to spend that $$ if the darn thing won't shoot well.
What makes this embarrasing is that I actually do gun repair and restoration, mostly double guns and custom-made rifles and some .45 1911 work. I guess you could say my Minie experience is "long but very thin". I tried all the usual cast bullet "fixes" I use on cartridge firearms ( I really like cast bullets in everything). I know I have a rare "bird". and I really want to get it on line, but I'm very hesitant to alter it. I really don't want to replace the front sight or alter this one in any way that can't be reversed.


Campchair

[hobbler]

Have you considered a removable front sight?
Perhaps a brass assemblage with a bottom side radius fitted to the barrel, keyed to fit the existing front sight and secured in use by neodymium magnets. Something that cannot move except by intention and with indexed position that is completely repeatable.

[jswift]

Hello Campchair, I live here in lower Alabama(Enterprise). I am a member of the N-SSA and have been for over fifty years. I also shoot an Enfield, as well as other muskets, if I can be of any help, feel free to contact me at 334-347125 or 334-494-6444 or you can pack your shootin' iron(s) and drive to Enterprise where we have a 36 acre gun club with covered firing lines with all the amenities and a large club house. I have an assortment of minie' ball molds of various sizes that maybe of help.

[Maillemaker]

Hey Campchair,

You are very close to the usual N-SSA Deep South range - Brierfield Ironworks State Park in Montevallo. Most of the skirmishes of the year are held there. There is one there this month, August 27th and 28th.

Steve

[gemmer]

I'm located in Oxford, Alabama. I have a 577213OS mould, but haven't had time to do much more casting. I know about the Parker-Hale base plug design Lyman has on their PH mould. I contacted them and may have PH style plugs made for each of my moulds, but I hate to spend that $$ if the darn thing won't shoot well.
What makes this embarrasing is that I actually do gun repair and restoration, mostly double guns and custom-made rifles and some .45 1911 work. I guess you could say my Minie experience is "long but very thin". I tried all the usual cast bullet "fixes" I use on cartridge firearms ( I really like cast bullets in everything). I know I have a rare "bird". and I really want to get it on line, but I'm very hesitant to alter it. I really don't want to replace the front sight or alter this one in any way that can't be reversed.


Campchair
I don' skirmish, so I don't know if my solution to your problem would be "legal". My original '63 Springfield
shot way high, even after altering the rear sight which is a substitute for the original. Rather than messing with the front sight, I soldered a higher Richmond type front sight directly behind it. The rear sight can be swapped for the original and the front can be removed and the solder cleaned off.

[bobanderson]

I don' skirmish, so I don't know if my solution to your problem would be "legal". My original '63 Springfield
shot way high, even after altering the rear sight which is a substitute for the original. Rather than messing with the front sight, I soldered a higher Richmond type front sight directly behind it. The rear sight can be swapped for the original and the front can be removed and the solder cleaned off.

The Small Arms Committee has measurements for the location of front and rear sights for each firearm. Soldering a front sight behind an existing one would probably make it out of spec.

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

I know you shoot round balls already by your 1st post. You will be pleasantly surprised what a 50/55 2ff load will do with a patched ball. Its all about getting the the bullet to hit where you want it, in a little bitty group. Most of my deer dropped with this load between 50 and 75 yards.

[campchair]

I know you shoot round balls already by your 1st post. You will be pleasantly surprised what a 50/55 2ff load will do with a patched ball. Its all about getting the the bullet to hit where you want it, in a little bitty group. Most of my deer dropped with this load between 50 and 75 yards.
I had thought of a RB load. Have not checked the twist, but I will. Somewhere in my mind I recall the there groove PH Italian-made Three Banders would shoot quite well as they had a very slow (1 - 72"?) Twist,but the 5 groove British made 2 - band ones had a faster twist that would only work with very light RB charges. Best way would be to get some .572 balls and my ticking and Crisco/ mutton tallow and head to the range.However, I'd still like to get a good minie load for deer hunting worked up. I hunt at a nearby military installation. We get about 10 days per season for ML only. It'd be neat to show some of the "Sabot-and-2-Pyrodex-pills/plastic-stock"guys quick loading is not only confined to their way. One actually asked me last season "Could you actually kill a deer using "that black powder stuff"". No, I'm not kidding......Wish I was....
That's how much history is being taught in schools these days.

[Muley Gil]

Morning campchair,

Your 2 band P-H rifle should have a 1 in 48" twist. I also have one and mine shoots well with 42-45 grains of Goex FFFg under a .576" Minie.

WAR EAGLE!!