Two-piece Whitworth die?

[OregonBill]

Speaking of Whitworths, I managed to buy one of the last Parker Hales that Navy Arms had in inventory, probably 15-20 years ago, and with it I was able to purchase a two-piece hex die. The way this worked was that you cast a standard .458 Lyman slug, then put this slug between the two halves of the die and squeezed it in a bench vise. Does anyone else remember this "clam shell" die? Anyone have a photo?

[bobanderson]

The Whitworth swaging die is still available from Dixie Gun Works - $139.95.

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=8084

[OregonBill]

I'll be darned. There it is. Thanks Bob!

[pastore]

I'll be darned. There it is. Thanks Bob!

If you are looking to purchase one , I have one that I will sell for $100.

[MR. GADGET]

I remember seeing and had in hand a push type one pc die.
If I remember they make it from a section of barrel and add a cone to the face to start the bullet and start the forming.

They do the same for smokeless muzzleloaders now by using a cut from the end of the barrel and pre rifle the bullets to fit the barrel.

Somewhat like we do the cannon rounds now when you pre rifle them.

[OregonBill]

Fletcher, I am not currently in possession of a Whitworth. You might well find a buyer once the new Pedersoli comes to market.

[bobanderson]

Not to dump on a potential sale (but this is the Small Arms board) my friend and I used our trips to BPCR matches to shoot our Volunteer and Whitworth rifles at the 500 meter ram silhouettes.
My impression was the Whitworth was superior to the Volunteer by a slight margin, as far as goups on the animal went.
Interestingly, we also shot quite a few rounds of swaged and as cast bullets in the Whitworth to see if a hexagon bolt shot better than a round one. Our results, unscientific as they were, showed the extra step wasn't really necessary. It seemed like a soft lead bullet bumped up quite nicely to fill the hex rifling and accuracy was about the same. We shot pretty hefty charges so maybe the swaged bullet would be superior with lighter charges for use at 100 yards and less.

[OregonBill]

Bob, that was my experience as well.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

You might not even need to bother buying a Whitworth? The Whitworth was not the only small-bore rifle available. In other preliminary trials held at Witton (this from an article in The Argus, August 9, 1860, Melbourne), intimates:

The first 50 rounds were fired from an Enfield musket of .453 bore, rifled with five ordinary grooves, with one complete turn in 20 inches, the barrel being 39 inches long, and the same weight as the Enfield rifle now in the hands of our troops. The range was 500 yards, the weight of the powder 2.5 drachms, and the weight of bullet 530 grains. The whole of the bullets were fired into a radius of 9 inches, decimal 4. A second gun, of the same case and facility as at the first, the result being 9 inches, decimal 60. In the 10 last shots from this gun there were several bull’s-eyes. A third gun was then shot, at the same distance, with barrel 32 inches long, the result of which was a radius of 10 inches.

We latterly find the very same Enfield small-bore rifles in use in the “all comers” matches during the annual meetings at Wimbledon in 1861 and 1862, when figures of merit were reported anent one small-bore Enfield, attaining an accuracy very closely matching the Whitworth, having its mean deviation of 0.41-ft at 300 yards; 0.70-ft at 500 yards; 1.50-ft at 800 yards; 2.11-ft at 1000 yards; and 3.85-ft at 1200 yards.


Use of the Whitworth in the Queen’s prize of 1860 was merely attained by the taking by lots. It was rather the gun-maker selection for 1861 when it was first proposed to “Invite the gun-makers of the United Kingdom to a competition with rifles of a minimum bore of .451 and a maximum weight of 9 1/2 lb., the pull of trigger not being less than 3 lb.” The competition was held at the Musketry School at Hythe in February 1861. Each competitor was required to furnish six rifles of the same description and quality. The rifles were fired from a fixed mechanical rest, and the one that gave the best figure of merit was selected as the description of the rifle with which the Queen’s prize, together with the gold medal of the association, was to be competed for (during the annual meeting of 1861), subject to the condition of the manufacturer undertaking to supply the number of rifles required at time specified, and of their being in every respect equal to the one chosen.

[bobanderson]

Now you're testing my memory, guys.

It might be time for John Holland to weigh in and set us straight, but I think I remember that the Volunteer rifles were developed to create a small bore rifle version of the current military issue, aka the Enfields, for use in civilian practice. The specs called for a .451 bore and Alexander Henry rifling.
When I had my Volunteer rifle I was able to lay it side by side with my two band Enfield. Granted thy were both repros, but the similarities were definitely there.

Again, I sold it because there were no long range matches here in Michigan that I could compete in. If the N-SSA were to create a match in Virginia during the Nationals week, I'd get another one or maybe a Whitworth. There is nothing quite like laying on your belly and hitting a knockdown target at 500 meters (that's 547 yards).

[OregonBill]

Bob, I played with a Volunteer as well, hoping to eventually hunt with it, but that never happened. I found with the issue sights and trigger it was as accurate as the Whitworth in my clumsy hands.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Now you're testing my memory, guys.

It might be time for John Holland to weigh in and set us straight, but I think I remember that the Volunteer rifles were developed to create a small bore rifle version of the current military issue, aka the Enfields, for use in civilian practice. The specs called for a .451 bore and Alexander Henry rifling.
When I had my Volunteer rifle I was able to lay it side by side with my two band Enfield. Granted thy were both repros, but the similarities were definitely there.

Again, I sold it because there were no long range matches here in Michigan that I could compete in. If the N-SSA were to create a match in Virginia during the Nationals week, I'd get another one or maybe a Whitworth. There is nothing quite like laying on your belly and hitting a knockdown target at 500 meters (that's 547 yards).

Given all the attention recently anent shooting traditional ammunition, etc., in the annual meetings of the British National Rifle Association at Wimbledon back during the 1860s, competitors were limited to two shooting positions: from the shoulder at 200 yards; and from the knee, Hythe position, at the remaining five ranges of 500, 600, 800, 900, and 1000 yards!

Even in the now famous “all comers, any rifle” competition, the 200 yard target was required to be shot off the shoulder, while any position was allowed for the remaining five ranges, so long as no fixed artificial rest was used. Also, only regulation “open” sights were permitted (telescopic sights, vernier rear sights, front aperture sights, and spotting scopes were all prohibited). And too there was no wiping or cleansing the bore between shots. The minimum pull of trigger was 6 lbs (no hair triggers allowed), and maximum weight of the rifle, 10-lbs; of regulation pattern, inspected and certified by the Superintendent of the Royal Small-Arms Factory.

Below is a link providing a paper that was read on the Hythe School of Musketry Instruction before the Society of Arts, 19 June 1862, which is a very interesting read, especially for anyone believing their rifle shooting is so impressive at 50 or 100 yards. Perhaps they ought to try their luck at distances of 500, 600, 800, or 1000 yards “off the shoulder” or “off the knee (Hythe position)” with the P/53 Long Enfield or the short Engineer or Navy rifles.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Kj5JAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA477#v=onepage&q=Hythe%2 0Position&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=Kj5JAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA477#v=onepage&q=Hythe%20Position&f=false)

[kennycarmichael]

If you are looking to purchase one , I have one that I will sell for $100.
Fletcher Pastore
Cockade Rifles
http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/images/misc/progress.gif http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/clear.gif Reply With Quote (http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=51512) http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/images/buttons/multiquote_40b.png (http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=51512) (http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/report.php?p=51512) If you still got it, I am interested
Kenny Carmichael Forrrest Escort 7694V

[bobanderson]

We had a long range match at a skirmish at Camp Grayling about 5 years ago.
I was the only one to hit a steel oil tank gong at 800 yards. I was using a 3 band Parker Hale, a Lyman 575213 minie, 60 grains of Goex 3f and issue sights. Took me about 4 shots, but I hit it.
For those who doubt, I have a witness.
There was also a steel horse at 1000 yards, but that load ran out of gas short of the target.

[dbm]

posted by: R. McAuley 3014V. Use of the Whitworth in the Queen’s prize of 1860 was merely attained by the taking by lots. It was rather the gun-maker selection for 1861 when it was first proposed to “Invite the gun-makers of the United Kingdom to a competition with rifles of a minimum bore of .451 and a maximum weight of 9 1/2 lb., the pull of trigger not being less than 3 lb.” The competition was held at the Musketry School at Hythe in February 1861. Each competitor was required to furnish six rifles of the same description and quality. The rifles were fired from a fixed mechanical rest, and the one that gave the best figure of merit was selected as the description of the rifle with which the Queen’s prize, together with the gold medal of the association, was to be competed for (during the annual meeting of 1861), subject to the condition of the manufacturer undertaking to supply the number of rifles required at time specified, and of their being in every respect equal to the one chosen.

Competitive gun makers trials for the rifle to be used in the final stage of the Queen's Prize were first held in 1860, not 1861. Only Mr Whitworth and a deputation of Birmingham Gunmakers responded to the NRA invitation published in The Times on 18 April 1860. The trial was due to take place at Hythe at 800 and 1,100 yards. The superiority of the Whitworth was evident early on and the Birmingham gunmakers withdrew before completing the 800 yard shooting.

In 1861 trials were again due to be held at Hythe. Mr Whitworth brought rifles and a mechanical rest. Alexander Henry brought rifles but no rest; his rifles would not fit the rest provided for competitors so he had to withdraw and the trials were abandoned. Mr Whitworth's rifle was again adopted for use in the final stage of the Queen's Prize.

1862 the trials became more competitive with rifles by Henry, Ingram, Rigby, Terry, Turner, Whitworth tested at 500 and 1000 yards. Whitworth won.

For 1863 and 1864 Whitworth again won. Rigby was successful in 1865 and Whitworth again in 1866. That was the last time the trials were held.

See Rival Rifles (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/index.php/gunmakers/rigby/153-rivalrifles) on my web site for more information on the 1865 trials.

David

[dbm]

....I think I remember that the Volunteer rifles were developed to create a small bore rifle version of the current military issue, aka the Enfields, for use in civilian practice. The specs called for a .451 bore and Alexander Henry rifling.
The first NRA(GB) Annual Rifle Meeting was held at Wimbledon in 1860. They remained there until 1889, then continued at Bisley from 1890 as they still do. For the gun makers of the time the establishment of the Volunteer movement and later the NRA created a new market in the form of discerning riflemen seeking accurate long range arms.

For the most part Volunteer competitions were restricted to their arm of issue; the P.53 Enfield, the Snider and later the Martini-Henry. The all-comers / any rifle events is where there was more diversity, and this would have seen the various small bore rifles come into their own. A later class for military breech loaders (MBL) evolved. Within basic parameters variation was permitted and designed to encourage gun makers to develop rifle improvements.

There was no requirement for any particular form of rifling.

The 'Any-Rifle' used for competition evolved, during the decade of the 1860’s, from variations of the military pattern to specialised items not suitable for military use. The early rifles outwardly appeared much the same as the service arm of issue, with full length military stocks and open sights, the bore and form of rifling being where the major differences lay. These are generally described as military match rifles. Through the 1860’s the small-bore rifle evolved into a highly specialised form of target rifle. The full length stock reduced to a half stock with ‘pistol grip’, and the ramrod was no longer attached. These features allowed more weight to be concentrated in the barrel (the overall weight limit of the rifle being restricted to 10lb for NRA competitions). Open sights had been replaced with aperture sights; foresights took interchangeable elements, and incorporated a spirit level to aid eliminating cant. Sight mountings were also included on the heel of the rifle stock to permit the use of the back position. This is the match rifle.

The long range match rifles became quite expensive so that the class gradually turned into the playground for a relatively small number of shooters.

Contrary to comment in a post above, cleaning between shots was permitted:


Firing Regulations for the Wimbledon Meeting, 1865
4. Competitors may wipe out or clean out their rifles during competition, provided they do not delay the squad by so doing.

General Regulations for the Wimbledon Meeting, 1869
VIII. Competitors may wipe out or clean out their rifles during competition, provided they do not delay the squad by so doing.

Regulations for the Wimbledon Meeting, 1873
IX. In muzzle-loading competitions the competitors may wipe out or clean their rifles during a competition, provided they do not delay the squad by so doing. In breech-loadings competition this shall not be allowed, except between the distances in the competition.

It was not until 1883 that cleaning out between shots was prohibited in the match rifle events .


David

[pastore]

If you are looking to purchase one , I have one that I will sell for $100.
Fletcher Pastore
Cockade Rifles

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Kenny Carmichael Forrrest Escort 7694V

I still have it. If you want it you can email me with shipping address. I will give you address to send payment. I will ship free.

pastoref2@verizon.net