FS: De-farbed Richmond Rifle

[Moses Milner]

I have a EOA Richmond Rifle for sale. It was originally a full length musket that was professionally shortened to rifle length and de-farbed by David at Lodgewood. All Italian markings have been removed, viewed and proof marks stamped on the barrel, stock stamped with inspector's cartouche. Stock was trimmed and properly shaped, oiled and waxed, barrel trimmed to 33", muzzle crowned at 11 degrees, bore miked to .576.
This is a very nice piece. Dark brown walnut with red undertones. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this rifle. I am selling because I need the $$ for other things, and unfortunately, this one I must part with. Can text or email pictures, if you are interested. Will try to upload some pics onto this site later, but my kids are all grown and gone, so will have to figure that one out for myself. Too badd.
$650 shipped. Can take M/O, check (must clear bank before shipping), or PayPal. Your choice.
PM me if interested, or send email to aboman at centurytel dot net. We can discuss on the phone, if you want. Or you can send a text to my cell at 208-756-7363, and I will text back some pics, or we can just discuss on the phone. Again, your choice.
Thanks for looking.
Joe

[Moses Milner]

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[Eggman]

I have a EOA Richmond Rifle for sale. It was originally a full length musket that was professionally shortened to rifle length and de-farbed by David at Lodgewood. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this rifle.
I have no idea what "defarbed" means. According to current dictionaries it is not a word. From your description it sounds like what you're actually saying is the gun has had legitimate manufacturers' marks removed and fake marks applied in their stead. It would seem that folks examining the gun in years ahead (or even our current small arms committee in the present) might have difficulty separating this gun from an original. The question then arises: how will the future collector be able to differentiate this counterfit from the real thing? Are the "defarbers" (can the word also be used as a noun?) doing a major disservice, possibly fraudulent, to the antique arms trade? (Wondering: why is it the replica arms makers meticulously stamp their identification data on each and every firearm? And who has the temerity to remove same?)

[dbackfed]

I have no idea what "defarbed" means. According to current dictionaries it is not a word. From your description it sounds like what you're actually saying is the gun has had legitimate manufacturers' marks removed and fake marks applied in their stead. It would seem that folks examining the gun in years ahead (or even our current small arms committee in the present) might have difficulty separating this gun from an original. The question then arises: how will the future collector be able to differentiate this counterfit from the real thing? Are the "defarbers" (can the word also be used as a noun?) doing a major disservice, possibly fraudulent, to the antique arms trade? (Wondering: why is it the replica arms makers meticulously stamp their identification data on each and every firearm? And who has the temerity to remove same?)

There are lots of words not in the English dictionary that are in every day use. "Defarb" is simply the process of making a modern reproduction to resemble an original musket. Modern serial markings are placed underneath the barrel away from common site to obeyed to modern gun laws. Markings are added, stocks are recontoured. People selling a "defarbed" musket in the future as an original would have difficulty as originals have many, MANY more markings on individual parts, inside and out. Furthermore, a person selling it would have to explain how a weapon 150+ years old is in such immaculate condition or how it has heavier weight than original muskets. Barrels on reproduction muskets are larger and one cannot hide that.

I would be MORE wary of people buying the parts guns. assembled from original pieces and being sold as 100% originals, that some use in the NSSA community.

Selling an item fraudulently doesn't have to start with defarbed rifles. Leather accouterments and uniforms are meticulously crafted by some makers in the same construction manor of original items. No one has accused these people of making items of this nature for fraudulent use down the road. They are simply made to be the most accurate representation of items make during the Civil War.
Anyone can removed markings from their gun. Modern gun makers have to show these marks. Lodgewood is one company that many have do this process. Businesses like Lodgewood are also an important resource to the NSSA community. The minute a part is broken or has to be replaced on an original weapon by a modern shooter, it is no longer the original weapon use during the war. Being sold down the road, is it not fraudulent to say the weapon is 100% original to the period?

[MarkTK36thIL]

What's been said about defarbed work already. Just don't remove serial numbers from modern cartridge firearms (you Henry folks). The authorities don't take kindly to a cartridge firearm that's had the serial numbers filed off. Muskets on the other hand- they have more important things to worry about than repros of slow rate of fire weapon.

[ms3635v]

"I would be MORE wary of people buying the parts guns. assembled from original pieces and being sold as 100% originals, that some use in the NSSA community."

This quote is misleading, especially to anyone who is not familiar with our sport and the NSSA. Take a minute and consider any field repairs made during the Civil War. Based on your quote, a field repaired firearm could not be considered 100% original. Also, taking your view of this issue, if I am on the line shooting my original Springfield and, let's say, the sear spring breaks and I replace it with an original sear spring, I guess based on your thought process, my Springfield is no longer "original."

[Eggman]

We're all products of our experience. I spent part of an afternoon one time listening to a "gunsmith" pitch a "custom built Kentucky rifle" to an unwary customer. The gun was a gussied up Itallian kit, all ID scraped off of course. Any time you do ANYTHING to a gun to make it less identifiable for what it really is you are committing a grosss ethics violation at the minimum, a crime if you misrepresent the piece, at the maximum. This "serial number on the underside" thing is a joke.
Let's not use "defarbed," lets use faked.

[MarkTK36thIL]

In regards to the salvaging muskets; it's meant as folks buying guns to dismantle and sell for parts. Granted, most of those sporterized post-war shotguns aren't worth much, and are the target for salvaging parts instead of a collectible piece.

I don't think of it as being faked. It's like buying a sack coat from Jarnigan vs. Sekela/Wambaugh and White. One looks right 10 yards away; it's wool, it's got brass eagle buttons, it's blue vs. one that was produced right using identical patterns, sewing techniques, more accurate buttons, etc. Using the same idea, Wambaugh and White fake their uniforms then.

Guys will do the research to buy/make the most correct gear for the Robert J. Miller award -so why can't inaccurate appearing guns be made to look more correct in appearance for the sake of one's appearance to look more like they did?

Slimming stocks, removing the markings that say "Black Powder Only," all in the name of trying to look more original without spending twice or three times the cost for a weapon that someone couldn't afford. Lodgewood has had numerous one-of-a-kind reproductions in stock that have been made to look more original, or are a custom piece because shooting a $15-20k original is out of the question for most folks. I like the idea of being able to take out a reproduction that looks correct for reenacting, and being able to leave my expensive pieces on the shelf during events that there might be some abuse/rain/weather, rather than risk breaking an Enfield stock at the wrist (two weeks ago).

[dbackfed]

"I would be MORE wary of people buying the parts guns. assembled from original pieces and being sold as 100% originals, that some use in the NSSA community."

This quote is a misleading, especially to anyone who is not familiar with our sport and the NSSA. Take a minute and consider any field repairs made during the Civil War. Based on your quote, a field repaired firearm would could not be considered 100% original. Also, taking your view of this issue, if I am on the line shooting my original Springfield and, let's say, the sear spring breaks and I replace it with an original sear spring, I guess based on your thought process, my Springfield is no longer "original."

Mike,you are correct. I should have been more specific and clear. I was thinking more in tune with someone, after the Civil War, taking parts from multiple guns and creating
a musket from a selection of dissociative parts. A field repair would still be in tune to a weapon in use during the war. From a collector's standpoint, some will detract value from a gun if you add or take away parts that are not true to the weapon's use during the war or clean it up.
I would say your gun is not true to it's use during the war.
I would say it is an original gun.

I ask you this. If you had a CS marked Enfield Rifle Pattern with a Parker Field and Sons lockplate, would the gun be the same value if replaced it with a Tower 1862 lockplate? That's what I was thinking more of when it comes to replacing parts. You made.some very good arguments Mike. Thanks for making me clarify.

[dbackfed]

From your experience, the seller was fraudulently selling a reproduction firearm as original. A "defarbed" gun is not intended to be faked, but rather the best representative piece a reproduction can be. No collector should mistake an original from a reproduction. Even my "defarbed" Parker Hale is nothing close to my original Tower. Just like a garment collector should not confuse a Sekela frock to original.

I can simply tell people my Armisport Springfield is original. Nothing has to be faked in order to make a fraudulent claim. Places like Lodgewood are not selling the guns to collector's to sell as fakes down the road. They deliberately leave off many many markings, such as inside the lock or on individual screws like Harper Ferry made guns.


We're all products of our experience. I spent part of an afternoon one time listening to a "gunsmith" pitch a "custom built Kentucky rifle" to an unwary customer. The gun was a gussied up Itallian kit, all ID scraped off of course. Any time you do ANYTHING to a gun to make it less identifiable for what it really is you are committing a grosss ethics violation at the minimum, a crime if you misrepresent the piece, at the maximum. This "serial number on the underside" thing is a joke.
Let's not use "defarbed," lets use faked.

[Eggman]

No collector should mistake an original from a reproduction.

True. But there are thousands, I mean THOUSANDS, of Civil War buffs who very often buy artifacts of some sort, firearms being the most preferred, most conversation worthy artifact. These are NOT "collectors;" they are trusting folks enthralled by Civil War lore and owning a physical piece of it, and are prime candidates for a hosing by the abundant con men posing as Civil War experts. It is for the latter that "defarbing" provides a ready lubricant.
In addition to the Kentucky I also saw a fake Hawken foisted on a buyer for big bucks. And of course like many of us I've seen questionable guns on tables at gun shows. No problem here; the buyers are collectors.

[dbackfed]

I do wonder will come of the many museum quality reproductions put there. From leather accouterments, to hats and canteens, what will the general population do in a hundred years.

[RaiderANV]

Is all od this "discussion" on what's faked or real......defarbed or destroyed taking place on someone's SALES' AD??
While some of the info has merit, somehow this doesn'even seem couth taking place on the guys ad! :roll:

[Eggman]

I'm sorry - I didn't realize sales ads by folks outside the association were sacrosanct.

[Moses Milner]

Eggman--Seems I touched a nerve with my use of the word "defarbed." I am sorry if I offended you, so please accept my apology. David Stavlo, who is a member of the NSSA, has a pretty good definition of "defarbing" on his website, lodgewood.com, and I thought it was a commonly used term among skirmishers and re-enactors. BTW--I would LOVE to be a member of the association, but I live in Idaho, and didn't think I could join. I am interested in CW history, muskets, etc., however; hence my interest in this board. I appreciate the kindness of the association in letting me participate in the board, even though I am not a member of the association.
Thanks to everyone else (dbackfed, Mark T, and Raider) for your input, too.
I have had several inquiries about the rifle--from both members and non-members-- and appreciate your interest as well.
Thanks again.
MM

[RaiderANV]

Eggs.......his posts are no more or less importa t then any of your, mine or anyone else's. Not as funny as some of yours else. Most all message board have rules agaisnt chit'n on another post. Our imput about our feelings of terms used by other doesn't help their chance of selling and if anything hurt their chance and or price.

If a discussion is in order about the use of terms we could make a post under the arms section about defarbing of arms. No harm Intended towards anyone. Just feel folks sale posts belong to them and not to be trespassed against as its not helpful. If they have given bad information or misleading in their post then a PM to enlighten them could be in order.

As far as this gun goes......with the cost of a mint gun and all the work Lodgewood did to turn it into a two band skirmish gun it 3-400 under what the cost would be.

[Eggman]

Well my view is this is the N-SSA Bulletin Board and we have a dog in every fight posted here. Obviously I'm personally torked (28 years an Army ordnance officer) by people altering or eliminating any information a manufacturer stamps on a firearm. I feel like our standing mute on this means tacit approval.
As to the word "defarb," it's a lot more pleasant (facilitative) to say this than to say "ID data [and sometimes safety data] has been filed off," or "gun has had ID stamps altered to resemble the originals," or just simply, "this gun has been mutilated." "Defarb" provides psychological cover for doing something ethically shakey.

[dbackfed]

There is nothing wrong with wanting the most accurate representation of an original rifle from a reproduction. It is no different than wanting the most authentically constructed reproduction of a uniform from the war, complete with vegetable dyed jean cloth and handsewn details, instead of wearing blue jeans and cowboy hats.

Not sure what you have against this seller, because he is not claiming the gun to be original, and defarbed muskets have been around for well over a decade. If someone makes a false claim about an item, then it's an ethics question of the seller's intent but also of the buyer's responsibility to research what they are purchasing beforehand. Do you buy a house without first having it inspected?

According to your argument, the NSSA should then stop using lead bullets because they may be mistaken for real ones down the road when found by some uninformed history buff. Same goes with belt buckles, buttons, etc. that many use to represent soldiers of the Civil War.

The seller provided full disclosure to what he was selling. If he lied, then you can make an argument of what he was selling. Otherwise, you are simply harassing a guy who shares a common hobby like many of us. A sales post is not the place to voice your agenda. I am sure there is another part on the forum that one can carry out the debate.

[MR. GADGET]

I'm sorry - I didn't realize sales ads by folks outside the association were sacrosanct.

Has nothing to do with inside or outside the Org.

All ads should be left alone and if you have a problem then take it up with the board or mods....

Stop all the ad bashing...

[MR. GADGET]

Well my view is this is the N-SSA Bulletin Board and we have a dog in every fight posted here. Obviously I'm personally torked (28 years an Army ordnance officer) by people altering or eliminating any information a manufacturer stamps on a firearm. I feel like our standing mute on this means tacit approval.
As to the word "defarb," it's a lot more pleasant (facilitative) to say this than to say "ID data [and sometimes safety data] has been filed off," or "gun has had ID stamps altered to resemble the originals," or just simply, "this gun has been mutilated." "Defarb" provides psychological cover for doing something ethically shakey.

Then you sir have some problems you need to deal with.

There is more problems in this thread about ethics with all the people posting in his add.

IF YOU don't like it then take it up with the board and not bash those you think are doing something wrong when they are not.

Ethics starts at home.

[John Holland]

Mr. Gadget has made a very good point about redirecting posts to another topic altogether.

Perhaps, in the future, if a post is taken over by others and their arguments they may be instructed to open a new topic for their discussions.

JDH
BB Moderator

[Eggman]

I have to admit I was a bit deranged after spending the weekend trying to train a former reenactor converted new to skirmishing.