Clean Gun shoots High

[Michael Bodner]

OK - Here's a fun one....

I recently redid the front sight on my Zoli Zuoave so I had to replace and sight in the rear sight.... While dialing in the sights, I discovered that when I cleaned the gun, the first 2-3 shots would always go about 6-8 HIGH....

Who has experienced this before (Clean gun shoots to different point of aim than dirty gun)??? IF you have experienced this, do you have any idea what the heck is going on that causes this AND were you able to 'fix' it?

Thanks in advance!

[John Holland]

In my opinion, if the bullets are too far undersized you will require a couple of shots to foul/tighten the bore before they will group properly. The bullet I shoot will slightly engrave the lands on the bullet at the muzzle. Every round has to be pushed down the bore, but every first shot from a clean bore is a 10-X every time. That includes the first shot right out of the gun case with oil in the bore. I have used four rifles/muskets in in my skirmishing career of 50+ years and that formula worked the same for each of them.

[RaiderANV]

What John is trying to say Boots is........yer balls are to small.

[Don Dixon]

This question has arisen periodically on the board. Assuming that you have checked the tang screw and the barrel bands, and that the first rounds you fire are consistently going into the same point of impact before the group settles at a different location on the target, I have two questions.

1. Have you patched the cleaned barrel of the musket to ensure that it is clean and dry before strarting a string of shots?

2. Are your bullets no more than .002 inches under bore size?

If the answer to both questions is yes, then we have the problem known as the "Sniper's Zero," because the sniper has to know exactly where the first bullet he fires is going to go out of a clean, cold, dry barrel. Many firearms will shoot the first round out of a clean, cold, dry barrel to a somewhat different point of impact than the remainder of the shots fired out of the gun. Because the rules permit them to fire sighting shots before going for record, knowledgeable competitive smallbore rifle shooters will often fire several fouling rounds to warm and foul the bores of their rifles before starting a string of record shots. When I shot with the All-Army Reserve Rifle Team one of my National Match M14 rifles -- built by Army Marksmanship Unit gunsmiths -- fired the first round out of a clean, dry, cold barrel one minute high at 600 yards. The remaining 19 rounds went in a very tight group one minute lower. Once I understood what the gun was consistently doing, I started a match 600 yard string -- no sighting shots in military high power rifle competition -- with the sights set one minute low and then added a minute to the sights for subsequent shots. I shot a lot of 199s and 198s with that particular rifle. It was otherwise a very good gun.

For N-SSA individual competition, you can fire a fouling round into the butts before starting an individual match. I do this with all of my guns.

For N-SSA team competition, you can't fire a fouling round. Assuming that your musket is consistently putting the first round into the same point of impact, hold off on the first shot. Then go to your normal point of aim for the remaining shots. Don't clean between stages of the team match. If you are using good lube and properly sized bullets, there is absolutely no need to clean between stages. With the condition that you have described, cleaning between stages is counter-productive.

Why do guns do this? Bedding. Manufacturing issues with the barrels. Internal thermodynamics within the barrels. Etc. It is much easier to deal with it as a sighting issue than as a mechanical issue.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[rkel870]

I have a Zoli relined by Whitacre Zouave. It behaved EXACTLY as you describe yours as doing. As John Holland states the projectile is undersized. The bore was supposed to be a .575, according to Whitacre. Using a 574 sized minie produced three erratic shots until sufficient fouling built up and it "settled" in, like a cold barrel modern day target rifle would do. The bore actually gauges out to be 276. A switch in sizing dies Ta-Da! No more erratic shots but they are stiffer to load subsequent shots. Not bad, as "dirt scraping" grooves and bullet lube seem to be doing the job. Also ended a lot of frustration by ending that "where in the heck did that one go" kind of shot try moving up in increments Good Luck. Bob Kelley 72nd NY

[Eggman]

At the risk of sounding like a simplistic dullard, try a dollip of grease in your bullet base each shot.. Theory: yer letting your barrel get too cruddy/crusty too fast - keep it slick.

[Muley Gil]

All firearms, no matter loaded from the muzzle or the breech, will shoot to a different point of impact clean v. dirty. Many matches, such as high power rifle, allow a "fouling shot" to dirty the bore before the actual match begins.

[Michael Bodner]

Using some plug gauges, I found the barrel to be 0.581". I cast a .580 semi-wad cutter and size to .580 Using the same calipers that I measured the gauge with (and it is an accurate plug gauge, so we can essentially calibrate the calipers...) I discovered that the sized round is closer to 0.579.

I always put lube in the base of the bullet, BTW. I do this because only one of the two lube grooves gets greased (I lube after the bullet is in the tube).

I also always dry patch the bore before shooting (to remove oil, etc).

So, basically, I'm shooting 0.002" under bore size....

I should try a better sizing die that is truly .580

Thanks everyone!!!

[ian45662]

When I measure my bores with a plug gauge I size my minies to what gauge will fit. For example. I have a Mississippi that will take a 537 bore gauge so that's what I size my minies to. I figure the bore was 538 since the 537 would
fit and not the 538. Same rings true for my relined Zouave. 576 gauge fits so that's what I size them to. 577 does not fit. I am not a machinest so I don't know how they would say it but it seems to me that if a 581 gauge fits and you size to 580 then you are .002 under and with 579 you are actually .003 under. If that's enough to make a difference who knows but just some food for thought.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Some plug gauges are made to a negative tolerance. In other words smaller than stated size

[Don Dixon]

All putting lube in the cavity of the bullet does is muck up the powder. No one made ammunition that way when people were shooting these things for real. Let the lube wars begin.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[RaiderANV]

All putting lube in the cavity of the bullet does is muck up the powder. No one made ammunition that way when people were shooting these things for real. Let the lube wars begin.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

Never saw this as productive. It WETS varying amounts of powder depending on how hard you set the round. Then in burning it adds moisture giving vastly different velocities as I've chronographed 100+ rounds many many moons ago and IIRC it was a spread of 150fps. Hence there is NO WAY possible to achieve constant accuracy. IF,,,,,,filling the base was better THEY WOULD HAVE done it that way back in the day.

[Michael Bodner]

Since most soldiers weren't worried about minute of arc, but rather, minute of Rebel, I don' think any accuracy differences would have been taken into account regarding base lube.

Since my bullets has two shallow grease grooves, and only one of them gets grease, if I don't add grease to the base, the gun fouls out quickly.

Now, if you want to argue that I can't hit anything, then you need to shoot against me....

[norman horne, 12321]

Hey Pat; sounds like a "challenge" to me that needs to be "settled" at the C.R. Homecoming shoot in a couple of weeks!!

[ian45662]

I put crisco in the base of my semi wad cutters but I am not concerned with the spread of FPS. If I didnt hit anything maybe I would be but as long as my hit times stay in the high 20s to mid 30s I will keep putting crisco in the base.

[Eggman]

Never saw this as productive. It WETS varying amounts of powder depending on how hard you set the round. Then in burning it adds moisture giving vastly different velocities as I've chronographed 100+ rounds many many moons ago and IIRC it was a spread of 150fps. Hence there is NO WAY possible to achieve constant accuracy. IF,,,,,,filling the base was better THEY WOULD HAVE done it that way back in the day.

Yeah BUT how then do you get enough lube in there to keep the loading nice and smooth and nonabusive (via whacking the thing down the bore) so you don't beat the bullet all out of shape. With my old Zouave most shots stay touching in the center of the pigeon silouwhette with the occasional flier still well within the pigeon boundary. When shooting with just grease grove lube I get fliers all over. By the way I use "Buy My Lube" (bees wax based) which I don't think is a soaker like Crisco.
Don't hink I'll make Homecoming this year so somebody please record the Bootsie/Norm shootoff.

[Maillemaker]

Once, when I first joined the N-SSA, I had to make up a batch of bullets in my RV on Friday Night so I had no choice but to lube the bases. I have never done so since.

There are many ways to achieve accuracy but they all hinge on consistency. I suspect you could win gold medals by putting a dog turd under each bullet as long as you were consistent about it every time.

It is my view that the primary purpose of bullet lubricant is to lubricate the bullet as it travels down the bore. As it travels some of the lube is left behind on the bore walls and this helps prevent fouling from sticking well to the bore.

It seems logical to me that lubing the base of the bullet will dilute the charge, and might result in a vapor of lube being deposited on the bore walls also. The dilution of the charge probably doesn't matter as long as you do it consistently every time.

I can tell you that the period lube recipe and application technique works just fine. I made up a batch of lube per the 1861 US Ordnance Manual, using a ratio of 1:8 of tallow to beeswax. I lubed the RCBS-500M Minie, a 3-groove minnie ball of about 530 grains. I shot some 25 consecutive rounds without cleaning and experienced no degradation in loading.

While a paper-patched bullet with the paper carrying the lube, there was a test of the Enfield style bullet fired over the course of a couple of years some 16,000 times without cleaning.

The period lube applied in the period style works.

Steve

[ian45662]

My big minies carry enough lube to where I dont need any lube in the base. Its the little wad cutters that need the extra help or at least that has been my experience. Without the crisco after a while they become difficult to get down the bore. The big 510 grain lyman bullet I shoot at 100 yards however needs no assistance and I have not ever had it to the point where it was difficult to load. Putting crisco in the base was something foreign to me until I started shooting the little wad cutters. As far as it melting and contaminating powder I dont know that I have ever seen evidence of that but then again I cant say otherwise either. All I know is that with the crisco the first shot and the last shot are just as easy to load and the generally hit in the same place so I have never givin it much thought

[Maillemaker]

All I know is that with the crisco the first shot and the last shot are just as easy to load and the generally hit in the same place so I have never givin it much thought

If it works, it's hard to argue with success! :)

Steve

[Maillemaker]

Here is the passage from Bruce Carin's paper on the British Enfield cartridge:

http://4thla.weebly.com/uploads/3/7/9/6/37969349/enfield_cartridges_by_bruce_carins.pdf

"Tests carried out at Hythe in the 1850s concluded that “With sufficient lubrication, the more perfect the expansion, the less the barrel will be found to foul. When proper care has been observed, the Enfield has frequently been fired 200 times successively without any difficulty in loading.”(8) Indeed, a test was conducted later, when one Enfield rifle, at a rate of twenty rounds per day, was fired a total of 16,000 times over the period from 5 August 1863 to 5 May 1866, without cleaning.(9)"

This is with the Enfield cartridge which utilizes a paper-patched hollow-based bullet dipped in beeswax. No lube was in the base of the Pritchett style of bullet as the base was plugged with a boxwood or fired clay plug. So the only lube was that which was impregnated into the paper wrapped around the bullet.

Steve

[ian45662]

I would really like to get into this paper patch stuff. I am going to get a 45 cal long range front stuffer sometime in the next year or so. I have been following your journey with intrest

[norman horne, 12321]

Hey EGG. The shoot-off I 'suggested' was directed toward P.J. and Bootsie. Sorry you cannot make it to the Homecoming; I've been wanting to observe some of this new-found accuracy you keep mentioning on the BB.

[Michael Bodner]

Shoot this....

[Eggman]

Hey EGG. The shoot-off I 'suggested' was directed toward P.J. and Bootsie. Sorry .
Norm - I'd like to get in on this-- maybe at Eva?? Only how about we shoot via one-on-one basketball instead. I'd be willing to put some real money on that result. Maybe play to 20 --- I'll spot you 10.

[norman horne, 12321]

Spot me 19 and give me first "in" and it's a deal!!

[Muley Gil]

" I suspect you could win gold medals by putting a dog turd under each bullet as long as you were consistent about it every time."

Remind me NOT to shake hands with you after you shoot!!!! :D

[Ron/The Old Reb]

" I suspect you could win gold medals by putting a dog turd under each bullet as long as you were consistent about it every time."

The smell of burning dog turds and black power would be unique.http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif

[Maillemaker]

Well, we already shoot a lot of **** while skirmishing! :)

Steve

[jonk]

Some plug gauges are made to a negative tolerance. In other words smaller than stated size

This is true, but it's usually minus 1/10,000". Or if you have a plus tolerance, the other way around. Not enough to impact what we're doing either way.

I wonder, is it a question of a clean/dirty barrel that's the issue, or a hot/cold barrel?

In any case, I have found some guns just do this and to live with it. Fortunately while some of my skirmish guns shoot better dirty than cold, the point of aim doesn't change.

[Jim Barber]

I'd been advised to use dog turds with my smoothbore, and had mixed results. I was using a 50/50 mix of wirehaired dachsund and schnauzer blend, which turns out to be all wrong. Dobermans fed a diet of pureed chicken skins and organic lard increased accuracy tenfold. Now, that's with an Armisport smoothbore. I just got an original Potsdam (thanks, Richard Pratt!) and have yet to test the Doberman blend. It does, however, smell like victory.

Your results will definitely vary. Thanks, Jim Wimbish! ; )

Jim B.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Jim Barber,

Dying to hear how your Doberman blend works out. I had always heard that you wanted to use a natural lube instead of a petroleum based one to avoid hard fouling. Plus there is an unlimited supply of free turds everywhere. Adds new meaning to the term fouling your barrel. Ever wonder why those dogs are always sniffing around your smoothbore guns? Must be that doggone natural lube that you are using. I understand that turds from Pointers will improve your accuracy as they just seem to know how to find the target.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

I have a Schnauzer that puts out more then he takes in. So I have plenty in my back yard. I'm going to give it a try in my Richmond.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Ron,

If your new lube concoction is a success and you start winning all the gold medals with your Richmond, you can start marketing your new product as SSG Lube ( Schnauzer Sh** Gold). Hopefully SPG lube won't come after you because the names are too similar.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Jim

To save any legal entailment with SPG I have decided to call my product Popper Lubber ( The choice of gold medal champions ). Comes with a pair of latex gloves and a plastic colored clothes pin for your nose.

I want to thank Bootise for starting this thread or else I would not have known that I had a gold mine in my back yard.http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif

[Jim Barber]

I'm always glad to offer my near-limitless creative solutions to these weighty topics.

...I hope Bootsie has made headway with his original issue despite our efforts to assist!

On a semi-related, semi-serious note, regarding Mr. Bodner's original question, it recently occurred to me that dad and I had a somewhat similar problem last spring. We were out for our first practice session, mostly shooting up old ammo. The old stuff shot consistently very high. Switching to some fresh rounds brought the POI back down to normal. Strange.

Happy Monday!

Jim B.
110th OVI
Grove City, OH

[R. McAuley 3014V]

But what ball diameter were they shooting (.567 or .550)? You really cannot rightly compare the results of the tests done in the 1850s to what we do today. I’m certain if you were shooting similar diameter elongated ball, you too could do so well. But if I am not mistaken, were you not experimenting with paper cartridges using a ball diameter of .566 was it not? Most of these other gents here are using minies sized 2/1000ths under, not 10/1000ths or even 27/1000ths like the Brits used back in the 1850s. But the Brits weren’t shooting for accuracy; they were simply trying to see how many shots they could achieve consecutively without cleansing the bore. I’m quite sure if the new N-SSA contest using original style cartridges were to also impose that original size bullets be used rather than the larger diameters we use for improved accuracy would show a marked decrease in accuracy and be a better demonstration of the original accuracy of these guns than you are producing with the larger diameter bullets. It would be as much of a comparison between .308 National Match cartridges loaded with Sierras compared to pulled linked M80 bullets intended for an M-60 machine gun at 600 or 1,000 yards. Don Dixon and I have shot both Sierra match bullets, and at times Brown box (intended for the M-21) if not M80 machine-gun ammo in the Leg Matches simply because the organizers of the match didn't have sufficient ammo for every participant in the match to shoot. Believe me, that alone leveled the playing field. Similarly, comparing these two type bullets at 200 yards is not much of a test fired from an match grade M-14, but shot from a drill rifle or even a combat issue rifle, that’s where the metal meets the road. Maybe your experiments using the .566 diameter ball may assist you in shooting more shots between cleanings, but one must also wonder how the added windage affects accuracy.