RCBS 578 Hodgdon Questions

[Confederate]

Hello People,

I have a bullet mold I got a while back for a rifle (Armi Sport 53 Enfield) that I have and I have a couple of questions. The first, what is a general rule of thumb for finding a good powder charge? And second, if I need to make it "bigger", would it still be accurate if I were to paper patch it? The reason why I ask is because I want to "dial" in my musket just before I get into the N-SSA, so I don't throw hard lefties, or have them drop like a stone.

Thanks,
Zachary Hodges

[0556V]

Hello People,

I have a bullet mold I got a while back for a rifle (Armi Sport 53 Enfield) that I have and I have a couple of questions. The first, what is a general rule of thumb for finding a good powder charge? And second, if I need to make it "bigger", would it still be accurate if I were to paper patch it? The reason why I ask is because I want to "dial" in my musket just before I get into the N-SSA, so I don't throw hard lefties, or have them drop like a stone.

Thanks,
Zachary Hodges

Use a .580 mould

[Fred Jr]

If the bullet is too small you will need to get a larger mould. A general usage is to start around 40g of 3F and work up until you get a good group. When I used a 53 Enfield (PH) I used a PH style bullet and 40g of 3F. When I switched to the Hodgdon bullet I had to increase the charge to 45g. You can not paper patch bullets in N-SSA competition.

[Lou Lou Lou]

One of the best ways to dial in a musket after you have slugged the bore and get the correct mould is to decide on a powder. Many if not most prefer 3F in everything.
Then cast up a bunch of bullets and load up ten each of 35,40,45,50 grains of powder shoot from a rest. Take the charge that gave you the smallest group. we do not care about location yet.
Load up ten rounds -4, -2, +2, +4 of the load that gave you the best group. Then take the best load of that group and try -1,+1.

Hope this helps

[Michael Bodner]

Zach,

First and foremost, let me welcome you to the world of Skirmishing and the N-SSA. I see from your posting that you are local to the Carolinas. In case you didn't know, we skirmish right here in NC at Statesville. We have an event coming up on Nov 13-15. I highly recommend that you come out on Saturday Nov 14 (and bring your musket) to check us out!

We shoot muskets, carbines, revolvers, smoothbores, Repeaters, even mortars and Cannons!! On Nov 14, we'll be competing with mortars, Revolver, Smoothbores, Carbines, and cannons, so there will hardly be a minute without something going bang!!



We'd be happy to help you figure out the best bullet and load for your gun. We can slug (measure) the bore of your musket so you'll know exactly what size mold to purchase, and as others said, help you get starting in working up a good powder charge for that bullet.

Feel free to contact me with any questions you might have at mbodner@chemringds.com

I'm the Commander of the Palmetto Sharpshooters. We're competitive, but like to enjoy ourselves. We cheer when we score well, and we shake hands and congratulate the team that beat us.

-Mike Bodner

PS: You can even fire your musket that day to experience what we do!!
PSS: It's free to come watch and free to try it out...

[Maillemaker]

The first, what is a general rule of thumb for finding a good powder charge?

Start on the low end, say 35 grains, and work up to the service load, 60 grains, in 5 grain increments. Once you determine the best grouping load, you can move up and down in 1-grain increments for the ultimate dial-in. I use the .578 RCBS Hodgdon sized to .576 in a Richmond Carbine with Hoyt barrel and a Euroarms P53 with Whicacre barrel. The carbine likes 44 grains 3F Goex and the Enfield likes 46 grains 3F Goex.



And second, if I need to make it "bigger", would it still be accurate if I were to paper patch it?

Paper-patched bullets are not currently allowed in N-SSA competition. Typically people cast slightly oversize and use a sizer to size down to what just fits down the barrel. This insures perfect roundness and precision sizing of the bullet.

Steve

[hobbler]

Hello People,

I have a bullet mold I got a while back for a rifle (Armi Sport 53 Enfield) that I have and I have a couple of questions. The first, what is a general rule of thumb for finding a good powder charge? And second, if I need to make it "bigger", would it still be accurate if I were to paper patch it? The reason why I ask is because I want to "dial" in my musket just before I get into the N-SSA, so I don't throw hard lefties, or have them drop like a stone.

Thanks,
Zachary Hodges

Sir,
At present do you have a means of determining the bore diameter of your piece?
A method that I have used with some success is to insert a soft cast minie into the bore while turning it as carefully as possible (by the nose) with a set of channel lock type pliers. That way the rifling machines down the lead. After trying it a few times and doing my best on maintaining alignment while turning, measuring the diameters of the minie skirts can give a good approximation of the diameter of sizer you may need.

[MR. GADGET]

Location?

I have pin gauges and could check your barrel for you if in the raleigh area or at a shoot in capron VA.

[Confederate]

Oh wow, sorry people. I usually have the subscriptions on, and apparently I forgot to enable it this time.

Thanks for all the information. But one other question, why can't you paper patch a bullet? Is it a safety concern?

But I don't believe I have a way to check the bore diameter, I will look through my garage, maybe I do. Thanks for the offer MR. GADGET, but again, let me check first. I may do what hobbler said, and shave the bullet down (if it is big enough). Watch, it will fit perfectly without shaving it :).

[MR. GADGET]

Oh wow, sorry people. I usually have the subscriptions on, and apparently I forgot to enable it this time.

Thanks for all the information. But one other question, why can't you paper patch a bullet? Is it a safety concern?

But I don't believe I have a way to check the bore diameter, I will look through my garage, maybe I do. Thanks for the offer MR. GADGET, but again, let me check first. I may do what hobbler said, and shave the bullet down (if it is big enough). Watch, it will fit perfectly without shaving it :).

Fire risk at a range with a bunch of people shooting paper that could burn.

Remember it is a national rule and we shoot all over in the heat and dry so just shooting BP in some areas can cause a fire on its own.

[Confederate]

Fire risk at a range with a bunch of people shooting paper that could burn.

Remember it is a national rule and we shoot all over in the heat and dry so just shooting BP in some areas can cause a fire on its own.

Ok, that makes sense. I didn't even think of that.

[jonk]

Fire risk at a range with a bunch of people shooting paper that could burn.

Remember it is a national rule and we shoot all over in the heat and dry so just shooting BP in some areas can cause a fire on its own.

It is a rule, though it makes me wonder how we get away with sharps with paper tubes, over powder card wads in smiths or henrys and so on...

In any case, it's rare to find a barrel that is at the 'theoretical' spec. Usually they are a bit oversized. My Armi Sport requires a .581" bullet, for instance. If you don't have a way to measure, consider buying the likely pin gauges. If bought individually, they are only 3-5 dollars each. If you got a .576, .578, .580 you'd probably get in the ballpark. Sizing 1-2/1000" under is normal.

[Lou Lou Lou]

I was unaware of over powder cards in smiths and/or Henry's. I thought we were all using COW or grits as a filler if needed.

[Maillemaker]

Thanks for all the information. But one other question, why can't you paper patch a bullet? Is it a safety concern?

I suspect that the biggest concern is remains of the paper possibly remaining in the barrel smoldering as an ember, causing a cook-off.

I remember reading recently about period testing of the Enfield style cartridge where an arm was fired over 200 times without cleaning and no issues were mentioned.

I suspect the biggest issue in using such cartridges, if anyone chose to use them, would be the paper confetti they would leave on the ground. But it's no less biodegradable than the bits of clay pigeon we leave behind.


It is a rule, though it makes me wonder how we get away with sharps with paper tubes, over powder card wads in smiths or henrys and so on...

Well, I suppose part of the logic may be that with a breach loader is that you push the bullet in from the rear, pushing any embers out of the way. Personally I suspect the fear of paper-patched bullets is probably over-rated, but I have not yet made and shot any to really have an opinion yet. I've got .566 and .550 Pritchet molds now - just need some time to make up some cartridges and try them out.

Steve

[Michael Bodner]

Zach,

I'll have my pin gauges with me in Statesville, NC at the skirmish on Nov 13-15. Where exactly are you located in the Carolinas?

-Mike

[MR. GADGET]

I was unaware of over powder cards in smiths and/or Henry's. I thought we were all using COW or grits as a filler if needed.

I did not know about using a card in a henry was legal.
Been a long time but we were talking about it and said that you can't use them so I worked my loads with out.

[jonk]

I did not know about using a card in a henry was legal.
Been a long time but we were talking about it and said that you can't use them so I worked my loads with out.

Under rule 22.1.c, use of filler OR wads is explicitly legal. ONLY however for carbines, revolvers, and breechloaders.

22.1 AMMUNITION, GENERAL a. Ammunition shall consist of a lead or lead alloy projectile and a pre-measured charge of black powder. b. Projectiles may be coated with a lubricant, and hollow bases may be filled with lubricant. c. Carbine I and II, revolver, and breechloading rifle ammunition may include non-explosive, non-metallic filler, such as Cream of Wheat or wads. d. Except for Carbine II and breechloading rifles, all ammunition must be externally primed. e. Breechloading cartridge arms shall use a cartridge casing of appropriate material as an integral part of the cartridge. f. Restrictions may be placed on the size or shape of a projectile, and it must approximate the weight of projectiles normally intended for use in the arm being fired.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Ox Yoke made felt wads for pistol. Is that the same as an over powder card? Felt versus paper?

[MR. GADGET]

Under rule 22.1.b, use of filler OR wads is explicitly legal.

So you can use a wad in the smoothbore pistol and musket.....

Cool will need to try different loads....

[P.Altland]

So you can use a wad in the smoothbore pistol and musket.....

Cool will need to try different loads....

No you can't. First Rule 22.1b says nothing about fillers or wads. That is Rule 22.1c and it is specific for Carbine 1&2, revolver and Breechloading rifle.

Rule 22.1.1 explicitly says that the use of anything except aluminum foil is illegal in a Smoothbore.




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[MR. GADGET]

No you can't. First Rule 22.1b says nothing about fillers or wads. That is Rule 22.1c and it is specific for Carbine 1&2, revolver and Breechloading rifle.

Rule 22.1.1 explicitly says that the use of anything except aluminum foil is illegal in a Smoothbore.




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Yes you can....

as you stated you can use aluminum foil as a wad... Said so in the rules...

[P.Altland]

Never said the use of Aluminum foil as a wad. The rule is very specific for Smoothbore. You may wrap a ball in Aluminum foil, with or without grease. That's not a wad.


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[MR. GADGET]

Never said the use of Aluminum foil as a wad. The rule is very specific for Smoothbore. You may wrap a ball in Aluminum foil, with or without grease. That's not a wad.


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It does not give a limit or amount and layer for use.
Anything between the ball and powder is a wad is it not?
One layer or 10.

[P.Altland]

A ball wrapped in foil is technically a patch. It's purpose is not a separator between the ball and powder. It's purpose is to fit the ball tighter to the bore. That's the definition of a patch not a wad.


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[MR. GADGET]

This is fun.....

I could maybe give you that...

But if you add several layers to the bottom it could be a wad and patch combined......

[Confederate]

Zach,

I'll have my pin gauges with me in Statesville, NC at the skirmish on Nov 13-15. Where exactly are you located in the Carolinas?

-Mike

Hey Mike, I am in Pittsboro, but I don't think I will be able to make it to the skirmish. Atm, I don't think I can attend anything on the weekends (which I know when everything is scheduled, sadly), because my boss's son just died, so I have the weekend "shift".

[P.Altland]

Call it what you want. The point is you cannot use a wad in a pistol, smoothbore or musket.


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[Confederate]

This is fun.....

I could maybe give you that...

But if you add several layers to the bottom it could be a wad and patch combined......

I don't know the rule book, but the way it sounds seems as if that still wouldn't be legal (because it is still a patch). But I would think aluminum foil would be worse, because there is that slight chance it leaves the barrel in such a way, it could hurt someone. Paper in the least will burn.

But regarding the patches, why can't you use nitrate paper? That burns instantly, and I think it would be safer than normal paper.


Call it what you want. The point is you cannot use a wad in a pistol, smoothbore or musket.


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But I still am kind of laughing, because if the name of the game is accuracy, wouldn't a patch be recommended? Granted, the ranges would have to dowse the field in water, but I wouldn't think that that is an issue (but I could be wrong, granted).

[P.Altland]

It's not about range fires. It's about the potential for cook-offs. due to the pace at which we shoot and reload.


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[Confederate]

It's not about range fires. It's about the potential for cook-offs. due to the pace at which we shoot and reload.


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So why not give the smoothbore users the advantage, and patch their round balls with pillow ticking or something similar?

[P.Altland]

They don't need it. You can accomplish the same thing by rolling your balls to increase their diameter.


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[hobbler]

Paper patched minies do not leave paper in the barrel. This I know from slowly learning how to make them for my .69 Fremont (thank you Jim Brake, I still love the dadburn thing).
But hey, how do you regulate the many ways in which everyone would be manufacturing their paper patched ammo?
Short version, you just can't. Whether or not it would start a grass fire, put smoldering confetti in somebody's powder measure or create litter kinda looks besides the point.

And yep, I'm plotting on how to make patched ammo for my Parker-Hale with the progressive depth rifling that was designed to cut the paper and then compress the projectile on it's trip towards the muzzle. Got an old .54 RCBS minie mold that might get recut to a smooth sided .57 just to give me something to play with. Hopefully I can come up with a design that works in the P53 as well.

[Michael Bodner]

Zach,

Looks like your post has gotten hijacked into a spit-wad fight... LOL

Feel free to keep in touch at my work email: mbodner@chemringds.com

Those crazy work hours won't last forever and you'll get your weekends back soon. We start again in the early spring around St. Pat's day. Keep your eye on our regional website for the Calendar. If you think Skirmishing is something you want to give a try, come on out! We don't charge any fee for visitors/guests/etc. So you're welcome to come out anytime and see / give it a try.

http://www.n-ssa.net/CAROLINA/carolina.html

ANYONE in the Pittsboro - Raleigh area that could help Zach slug his bore??? How about you Gadget???

-Mike

[Confederate]

Mike,

It is funny that you say that, because I was just thinking that :D. But even through these "spit-wad" fights, you still learn stuff.

But thanks again for the invite, I definitely want to try skirmishing, it is just a matter of time.

[Paul Lampman 263V]

Call it what you want. The point is you cannot use a wad in a pistol, smoothbore or musket.


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Wads are allowed in loading the revolver, see 20.6.b.

[P.Altland]

That is correct. Note that the word "pistol" was used. There is a difference.


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[Maillemaker]

So why not give the smoothbore users the advantage, and patch their round balls with pillow ticking or something similar?

I get the impression from your question that you might think that people shoot smoothbore and rifled arms in the same event - they don't. In the N-SSA they have separate events for carbine, rifled musket, smoothbore, revolver, etc. etc. etc.

In the N-SSA, shooters have figured out how to run smoothbore guns with balls without any kind of patch. Though some people do patch their balls with aluminum foil, which is permitted. People have come up with many different ways to treat the balls so that they fly with astonishing accuracy. Some people roll the balls between files to roughen up the surface, and then dip the balls multiple times in Lee Alox or some kind of lube. There are many theories about what makes this work but the end result is very accurate performance. I've watched people shoot better at 25 yards with a smoothbore than I can do at 50 with any of my rifled guns.

Steve

[John Holland]

For those N-SSA competitors who are inclined to present an early war interpretation, they are allowed to use smoothbore muskets in the Musket Team Match if they so desire. But, not the other way around.

[MR. GADGET]

I get the impression from your question that you might think that people shoot smoothbore and rifled arms in the same event - they don't. In the N-SSA they have separate events for carbine, rifled musket, smoothbore, revolver, etc. etc. etc.


Steve


yep as John has stated they can and do.

I have shot SB in a musket event, had fun doing it.
Some events are 25 yard and shooting Christmas Balls so they are very fitting for that.

Just like the guys that say you must shoot the same gun for all events when some will shoot a different for 100 or 25 yards.

[Maillemaker]

Wow, I did not know that.

Steve

[Eggman]

Wads are allowed in loading the revolver, see 20.6.b.

True. That's why the technical name for the business part of the loading lever on the underside of a revolver is called a ram wad.

[Confederate]

Hey Guys,

I have an update for you. I just casted a few of the Hodgdon bullets and the mold threw at me a .577 bullet (yay, I am more authentic than the rest :D). Anyways, that fit nearly perfect with my musket. It didn't shave any lead, but it wasn't a slider either, it fit snug (again, not too loose but not too tight). So apparently my Enfield is near perfect when it comes up to bore :D, except for the progressive depth. So now I need a lot more lead.

Zack

[Maillemaker]

Sounds like you are on your way to busting some clays!

Steve