The "Butter Zone"

[B-Davis]

To All,


So I have been told that the "Butter Zone" between round ball and hollow based minie's is the magical twist of 1:48. I am purchasing a .58 cal flintlock online from a private sale. Now with that being said, I am using the flintlock for hunting deer in PA. All I was told is that it is rifled and the rifling is in great shape ( no pitting).
I am comfortable shooting a roundball, BUT, will a minie work? What would be the lowest rate of twist that would be a comfort zone for a minie? Would 1:36 or 1:24 work?
I am planning on trying the RCBS Hodgden and a trashcan (chicken bullet with three Grease grooves (I LOVE this bullet))
Does any one have any experience shooting a .58 cal flinter with a minie? Even shooting a flinter with a minie?

let the discussion begin...



Bryan

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

Bryan,

I shoot a 54 flint and have shot a 58 in the past. A couple of questions please. Why do you think you need such a large bore and why would you want to put a Minnie down there?! I know you need flint, but am 50 or 54 roundball will do the job just fine and without such a rude recoil.

As for twist, 48 is way too fast for good accuracy in such a large roundball caliber, and pretty fast for Minnies also.

In the field, I think you will be much happier with round balls and a smaller caliber and stick to Minnies in muskets.

Been there, done that.

Greg

[Eggman]

Suck up that I am, I agree with everything Greg said. Plus:
There's this issue of the lands n' groovie thing. Good minie ball gun barrels have just just a few, leaving lots of room for the skirt to expand and grab hold. The flinter barrels generally do not. They're geared for a patch to grab hold of. Usually there are seven or eight or eleven or twenty-two grooves in there - very narrow. No problem stuffing a patch in, but a stiff lead skirt?? Problematic! Stick with a patched round ball like God and Greg and the German gunmakers intended.

[John Bly]

I shoot a .58 flinter with a Numrich barrel with 8 lands & grooves with a 72" twist. I named it "Thumper". It works great with round balls with at least 80 grains of 2F powder. It has taken quite a few Virginia deer. I've never tried a minie in it because it is so non-traditional.

I built a .58 caliber Hawken rifle many years ago for my brother with the same barrel. It needs 110 grains to shoot well with a round ball. I took it elk hunting back in the 1980's and in working up loads I tried a Lyman 575213 minie in it. Accuracy and range was not up to what I was getting with a round ball with 125 grains of 2F powder. That was over 30 years ago so I don't remember any specifics.

[John Holland]

With all due respect to the three previous posters, all of whom I count as friends along with Bryan, we now have a good discussion!

The British experimented with rifling nearly more than anyone else in the period and found that their P-58 Naval Rifle performed the best with 1x48 rifling! That is what Parker-Hale copied when they made their replica P-58 Rifle, and we know how well they perform. All those Bill Large military barrels the N-SSA has given such fame to are also 1x48. With that having been said, there is more to it. A twist of 1x48 usually has a very narrow window of what it wants to digest as an optimum load, either with a Minie or a round ball. In addition, Eggman hit it on the head with "...those groovie things...". The grooves in a round ball rifled barrel are usually much too deep to securely hold a Minie ball in its flight down the barrel. What happens is the Minie will skid/slip in the rifling causing the barrel to lead up quite quickly. This was also found to happen with many of the Appletown barrels when they used round bottom rifling in their military rifle musket barrels. Although they will shoot a patched round ball quite well.

Bryan, I encourage you to go ahead and experiment with your newly acquired rifle: Heavy patch, thin patch, heavy load to light load, Minies with thick and thin skirts, lubes ad infinitum! The worst that will happen is that you will have to un-breach the barrel to scrub some leading out. What you will end up with is a wealth of first-hand personal knowledge as to why things work the way they do. And, you may even stumble upon some combination that works satisfactorily for you!

Among a number of other things I play with, I am also a flint lock long rifle shooter!

JDH

[Maillemaker]

I've got a Pedersoli P58 with 1:48 twist and have yet to find anything that will shoot well in it.

Once (I have the target hanging on my wall) I got a 5-shot cloverleaf out of it using an RCBS-500M sized to .578 with 60 grains 2F Goex off a bench, but have not been able to repeat it.

I was told the 575213PH was the bullet to use in P58 Parker Hales but it dropped to small for my P58. So I traded for a similar mold and I am having the core pin modified to be truncated like the 575213PH to bring the weight up. I hope it works well. It looks like the 1:48 twist wants a heavy bullet.

Steve

[B-Davis]

Dear Greg,

It is not a matter of "thinking' I need such a big caliber, it is more of a matter of I "wanted" this caliber. I have tried .50 and .54 and I know they are great calibers, but I just wanted something different. That's all.
I like to experiment, that is why I brought the topic forward.

I just want to pick other peoples brains and have thoughts, suggestions, and theories. I do respect and apperciate your info. As I said, I am just looking for imput. I have a very thin skirted minie that I would like to try in the rifle and I have a very front heavy bullet with a rather thin skirt also. If that does not work, then I have a roundball mould for .58 cal and I can fall back on that.

[Muley Gil]

Has anyone tried Minies in the .58 Navy Arms 1803 Harpers Ferry rifle? I bought one years ago and it is sitting in the back of the safe, waiting for attention.

[B-Davis]

Ah! That is the rifle I had been looking for to hunt with! I could not find it anywhere! I am envious...

[Eggman]

I have one with a tuned lock I'll part with. Holler if you want to see it - will bring to the national.

[Smosin]

<snip>
1x48 rifling! That is what Parker-Hale copied when they made their replica P-58 Rifle, and we know how well they perform. All those Bill Large military barrels the N-SSA has given such fame to are also 1x48.
JDH

Ahh, Bill Large barrels...I have a Richmond rifle with a Bill Large 1/48 seven groove barrel that shoots equally well at 50 yards with patched round ball or Lyman o/s minié...and a PH musketoon with the shallow grooved PH barrel in 1/48, and it also shoots well with both.

[B-Davis]

Well, I measured the rifling as best I could. If I put a cleaning rod down the bore, and mark the rod with tape in line with the front sight. I pulled the rod until it was turned 189 degrees. It measured 32 inches. Would that be a 1:64 rate of twist?
I took the rifle to the range. I shot the .515 grain "chicken bullet" and it grouped great with .46 grains of powder! Just 8 inches low....When I was benching the rifle, it had 4 out of 5 touching each other at 50 yds.I went to 92 grains of 2 f and a .562 round ball shaken in a plastic bottle. I used .002 ticking for a patch. The rifle shot dead center of the bull! 2.5 inch bull at 50 yds.
Now, I would like to use roundball in the rifle if it is shooting this well. What would be a good conversion? 10 percent less? That would make a charge of 83 grains of 3f. Sound about right?


Bryan

[Timmeu]

My 1803 has a Bill Large barrel. I need to get it out and go to the range this fall.