Help with Pedersoli Sharps 1859 .54

[astrovan2487]

I just bought a "used" unfired Pedersoli Sharps and am having some trouble shooting it. I'm using fffg Goex powder in paper cartridges made from hair curl paper (non nitrated) with a .54 ringtail bullet from Track of the Wolf that is about 476 grains. Pedersoli says to use 60-80 grains black powder when using paper cartridges but the chamber needs close to 110 grains to fill it. So what I've done is make a paper cartridge with 40 grains cream of wheat behind the bullet then 70 grains fffg Goex. I'm having very inconsistent firing and am not sure where to look for problems. It seems to shoot best when I really smash the cartridge into the chamber and make sure there is no paper in the way, it's a real pain and this dosent even work half the time. The caps I'm using are RWS, the package looked really old, they go off but is there a hotter, better cap that I could be using? What is everyone else doing with their Pedersoli Sharps to get them to fire properly? I really want to stick with the paper cartridges and not try those reusable brass things. Any info is much appreciated!

[Curt]

Hallo!

Are you making the cartridges long enough for the breech block to "guillotine" and cut off the end?

Flash channels on the Italian repros can be an issue (right angle turns and small passages), but some types of paper(s) do not sheer well and the breech crushes the paper closed adding to the problem of flash getting through to exposed powder.

Curt

[ian45662]

could the breach block be fouled? Have you taken out the cleanout screw and all that? Also sounds like you have a HUGE chamber. My buddies pedersolie holds about 38 grains of powder

[astrovan2487]

The cartridges are long enough, it cuts them off right before the twist in the paper and when I reopen the chamber it is completely full of powder. The paper doesn't cut as clean as I'd like but it isn't in the way of the flash hole or anything when I recheck after cutting it. Before firing I took the breech block and nipple out and cleaned it, blew air thru it, even though it really didn't need it since it had never been fired. I'm wondering why this gun holds so much powder, it's definitely not missing the floating chamber sleeve. I did a little research and I've got the RWS 1081 caps, it looks like they make 1218 caps specifically for the Sharps and I'd like to try these, anyone know who carries them in stock? Thanks for all the help

[Fred Jr]

Contact Charlie Hahn. He is the man to talk to for Sharps problems. YOu can find him on the BB.

[ian45662]

I have found the caps that you are using work just fine.... In my sharps anyway. Of course your results may be different. One time I bought a bunch of nipples
from track of the wolf and started having ignition problems. I took out my numbered drill bit set and starting with the smallest I found a bit that would open the flash hole just one size larger than the hole that was in the nipple to begin with. Sharps goes off every time
now. Another thing that may be going on is you could
be pinching the paper instead of making a clean cut. I am not a fan of cartridges that have to be cut. I and most others use cartridges that are an exact fit for the chamber length. I make the body of the tube out of printer paper and the back of the tube has hair curler paper glued on. Nothing is cut off and the flash from the cap easily goes through the paper. This way is a little
quicker to load and your also putting the same
ammount of powder in the chamber each time. If ya can't remedy your issues then Charlie Hahn would be the fella who can get it going. If you wouldn't care do me a favor. Stick just a regular bullet in the chamber with nothing attached to is. Stick the depth gauge of some dial calipers and measure the distance from the bottom of the ringtail to the face of the chamber. Once you have that you should measurement see what the distance is from
the bottom or back of
the ringtail to the base of the actual bullet. Add those 2 numbers together and you will know how long to make your paper cartridges to that without shaving any paper the back of the case will be up against the flash hole. Hope this helps. May I ask where you are from. Someone in your area may be able to assist you in person

[Eggman]

I just bought a "used" unfired Pedersoli Sharps!

Why????????????

[gemmer]

Do you get good ignition when you have opened the breech first to see if the paper is sheared off? If so, then perhaps the reopening of the breech is clearing away excess paper. If not, then the problem is most likely with the flash channel and/or the nipple. I would try making chamber length cartridges as described
above. If that works, I would go one step further and order some of Charlie's tubes in the correct length.
But before you do that, measure the diameter of the ringtail on your bullet to make sure it will fit in the tube. Also, measure the diameter of the bullet's base. I seem to remember reading that TOW's ringtail
is .557 or so, which is too big for a Pedersoli. I shoot a Moose .544 in mine with very good results.

Duane

[John Holland]

A word of caution: When you open the breech block after the paper has been cut you are dragging unfired powder downwards into the forearm channel. Eventually this build-up of powder will be ignited and either split the forearm or blow it off completely. This is a known problem with percussion Sharps Rifles and Carbines which goes back to their original usage in the Civil War.

[Maillemaker]

Sharps carbines sound exciting! :)

Steve

[bobanderson]

Hair curler paper sounds wrong to me. I bought potassium nitrate off eBay and nitrated 3" adding machine rolls. I also switched the nipple to a shot out musket nipple to improve the flash getting to the powder.
Check out the series of articles titled Shooting the Percussion Sharps and you'll learn all you need to know to make reliable ammo.
If your Sharps still has the factory gas check, that could be part of your cartridge tearing problem. Contact Larry Flees, 111th OVI, to have an Ampco bronze gas check plate installed along with a new chamber sleeve. You will be rewarded with flawless ignition and greatly reduced fouling resulting in longer sessions before cleaning.

[astrovan2487]

The bullet measures about .550" (rough measurement) and when the bullet is seated fully forward in the breech there is 1 7/16" space behind it to the breech block. I bought another pack of 1081's to try out in case the ones I already had were too old. My next step will be to try the new caps, then if that doesn't work try to make nitrated paper. I really don't want to throw a ton of money into modifying it but if all else fails I will go that route. I only want to shoot paper cartridges out of it, just don't have an interest in the brass cases or tubes. Just seems weird to me that this gun is so hard to get to shoot when it was such a reliable gun used during war 150+ years ago. Apparently those 1218 caps are hard to come by no place has them that I know of, I live in Maryland. Thanks for all the help guys, I'll keep trying

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Not sure if this was even mentioned in this thread, but when my dad shot his Sharps - he used cigarette, rolling papers, to load his ammunition.

This paper worked great, but that was years ago. I'm not sure if rolling paper is still legal/readily available. But if it is, I recommend buying a pack or two to test them out.

[bobanderson]

I really don't want to throw a ton of money into modifying it but if all else fails I will go that route. I only want to shoot paper cartridges out of it, just don't have an interest in the brass cases or tubes.

If Larry makes you a new gas check plate, you'll get that money back if and when you sell it, or you'll get the old plate back and you can put that back in the gun (I think, not sure on that one.)


Just seems weird to me that this gun is so hard to get to shoot when it was such a reliable gun used during war 150+ years ago.

Not sure about that either. Breechloading systems were very new technology back then. Sharps' system was prone to leakage and fouling out to where they had real problems opening the breech in the heat of battle.

[Charlie Hahn]

Give me a call, 410-208-4736

Charlie Hahn

[jonk]

As said, Charlie is THE guy for getting sharps up and running well. To echo a few thoughts here, just to opine on my own experiences:

1. Cutting paper does often block the flash channel. As others have said, try to make cartridges that seat flush with the channel.
2. I also had the issue of too small a hole in the nipple. For my own use, a #54 drill bit solved the issue. A hotter cap would too, but right now the 1081s are the hottest available. Schutzen just released a new cap that is said to be hot, but I can't comment on that not having tried them.
3. Make sure your breechblock is not only clean, but dry and grease free. Spraying some brake cleaner through it and drying with pipe cleaners will do this.

If none of the above solve your ignition troubles, you may want Charlie to rework the block for you.

That said, I have concerns on the rest of your loading technique regarding accuracy.

1. Slug your bore. .550 might be ok, but any Pedersoli i've seen is in the .539-545 range and even if you use soft lead that doesn't have issue with pressure at that diameter, you probably won't get too much accuracy. I'd be happy to send you some .540s if you find that is what you need.
2. You do have a really big chamber. I'm the buddy who ian said has one with a chamber that holds 38 gr of 2f, or about 42 of 3f. Firing such a stout charge won't hurt anything, but you will quickly gum up the breech block and it will be unpleasant to shoot.
3. Most people I know get better results with 2f. Not all; worth trying both in your gun.

I'd bet solid money that if you made some nitrated papers or got some of Charlie's tubes for your chamber length, loaded them up with 50 gr of 2f and enough filler under the bullet to reach the powder column, with properly sized bullets using a good bp lube, it would shoot great as it sits.

[Curt]

Hallo!

The Italians have fiddled with the gas check system, back and forth, over time. My first Sharps carbine had the correct floating, but my next two rifles had the funky gas check sleeve or tube device.

For the "floating gas check" tube, my two were removable bu ti have heard many accounts of them not coming out. I guess it depends on what the worker was up to that day. :)

Anyway, with the gas check tube, the Sharps "Sharps" gas check plate was added to the breech block as a solid part of the casting and was not movable or removable since it was "integral" with the block itself and the tube floated back to make the seal. Where some lads had problems is that if the tube was not installed/machined to fit right not only was it not removable for cleaning they sometimes were bound up and did not "float' optimally enough to make a good gas check/seal.

Not knowing the "age' of your carbine, I am wondering if possibly its gas check tube is missing and that makes for a larger chamber? I would doubt it, though, as you would have all manner of gas leaks if it were the older solid breech block and not gas check plate that goes with the gas check tube.

Curt

[astrovan2487]

I think I have the firing issue worked out. Talked with Charlie today and got a little more insight on the gun. I also drilled out the nipple to 1/16". I made two different paper rounds with the hair curl paper. One had just the bullet and 63 grains Goex fffg and the other had bullet, 35 grains cornmeal, followed by 63 grains fffg. Both rounds fired first try. I was unaware that you did not have to completely fill the chamber with powder/filler. I plan on shooting it a bunch tomorrow to make sure I've figured it out. I only have 30 or so bullets left, I'd like to buy the right ones if anyone would be willing to sell them. I'll have to bring my micrometer from work to slug the barrel on Monday to find the exact size. Eventually I will buy a mold and make my own but it's getting to be archery season soon and I won't have much time for gun things until after the season is over in Feb.
Thanks again for all the help in getting this figured out.

[jonk]

Well I tell ya what... if you get a micrometer, slug the bore, and determine groove size, post what it is here. If it's a size I can handle, I'll send you 10 each of hard lead, soft pure lead, and a hard/soft mix. I find that hard works better in mine, a lot of guys swear by blends or soft though. Just to get you started. If you found that one worked better than the other, I have a fair number cast up of pure and hard, and I have moved over to shooting the smith more than the sharps... would be happy to sell you some if you'd like, for the actual cost of lead plus shipping. If, on the other hand, you need a diameter I don't have a sizer for, I'm sure someone else here can help.

Not filling the chamber... yes. Sharps are strange animals. It doesn't seem to be a problem for them; even when you do fill the paper tube all the way there is air space around the tube usually. Personally I think it's because the tube, even when nitrated, given the fast ignition of powder, contains it while it all ignites preventing the possibility of secondary explosion effect, but whatever the ballistics at work, I've never seen one have issue with a chamber less than full.

[bobanderson]

I have the Moose Moulds France Sharps bullet mould, .542 diameter, that shot great in my Pedersoli. I sold the gun to a friend who was going through Sharps withdrawal but kept the mould.

$100 shipped, send me a PM if you're interested.

[astrovan2487]

jonk, I would be extremely grateful if you could make me bullets once I've slugged the barrel. Yesterday, I made 10 hair curl rounds with the TOW bullets, 60 grains fffg, with the paper twisted at the end. The chamber is only about 60% full with this load. The first round took forever to go off, like 5 caps. After that I only had one round have issues, needed 2 caps. I also noticed that many of the shots sounded delayed, like the initial cap then the powder going off. Sometime today I'm going to make a few of the same with some nitrated paper I bought and hope that helps.

[gemmer]

jonk, I would be extremely grateful if you could make me bullets once I've slugged the barrel. Yesterday, I made 10 hair curl rounds with the TOW bullets, 60 grains fffg, with the paper twisted at the end. The chamber is only about 60% full with this load. The first round took forever to go off, like 5 caps. After that I only had one round have issues, needed 2 caps. I also noticed that many of the shots sounded delayed, like the initial cap then the powder going off. Sometime today I'm going to make a few of the same with some nitrated paper I bought and hope that helps.

Don't twist the ends. You need a flat, thin surface for the flame to burn through. Before I graduated to Charlie's tubes, I made hair curler paper cartridges to chamber length with the ends capped with paper medical tape. Never had a misfire or hang fire and nitrating the paper was not necessary. I get the same results with Charlie's tubes capped the same way and spend a lot less time at the loading bench.

Duane

[astrovan2487]

The Sharps is shooting good now. I made 10 rounds with 60fffg rolled with "magic" nitrated paper I bought on ebay. I had to change the way I was making the rounds as the nitrated paper was very stiff and would not glue or twist at all without ripping or coming apart. Instead of twisting the ends , I just made the paper extra long, folded it over to pinch off the powder, and had to tie thread around the ringtail to keep it on the bullet. When I went to load the round I'd just shove the round in, un fold the extra and cut it off. I even tried just shoving all the paper in a few times without cutting and it still went off just fine. Has anyone ever nitrated the hair curl papers themselves? I really like the texture/strength of the hair curl papers, it was really hard to work with this "magic" paper stuff.

[P.Altland]

Why don't you just go to your local smoke shop and by double wide rolling papers? They're meant to burn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ian45662]

here are some videos I made last winter on how I make ammo for my sharps. I meant to post this last weekend but I was at a shoot and forgot. Video quality may not be up to snuff as this was one of the first ones I made but it should still help you in your endeavor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7e8-ii9slBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN8lAKJAxC4

[astrovan2487]

I slugged the barrel yesterday and measured the bullet afterwards, it measures .553" which is pretty big. If the TOW bullets are .557 would this be a suitable size for my gun?

[jonk]

If their bullets are soft then that would be fine, yes. Don't have to be pure, I just wouldn't push super hard lead through a bore 4/1000 tighter than the bullet without sizing.

That said, sizing may help accuracy. May not. Depends on the gun. It also means my mold is too small to help you with some test bullets. :(

[gemmer]

I slugged the barrel yesterday and measured the bullet afterwards, it measures .553" which is pretty big. If the TOW bullets are .557 would this be a suitable size for my gun?

Considering that Perdersoli's Sharps is supposed to have .520 bore and .540 groove dimensions, your barrel is certainly way oversize.

Duane