Keyholes in a 2-band PH Enfield, 7-groove barrel

[Michael Bodner]

3397We've got a new member working up a load for his English -barreled 2-band Parker Hale Enfield.

With a 0.576 Hodgdon bullet on 45 Grains 3Ffg, it is bench-grouping about 1.5 inches at 50-yards (all inside the 10 ring) BUT it tossed a keyhole-flyer out into the 5-ring. (see attached.pdf image)

This was done with a dirty gun (not cleaned after 12 previous shots at 43 grains, and most were flyers with several keyholes).

Shooter reports that there was NO resistance in loading even shot #20.

So, with a gun that can group 1.5-inches, why the keyhole???

I would like to hear from other 2-band PH owners, BTW. I'm sufficiently experienced to know the typical causes of Keyholes.

But I want to hear about YOUR experience SPECIFICALLY with the PH 2-bander with a British made barrel with the 7 lands and grooves....

Thanks in advance!!!

-Mike

3397

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

Bootsie,

Don't be so stingy with the powder. Bump the charge to 50g of FFFg and make sure you thump the bullet once after the initial seating stroke and the fliers should go away.

Greg

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

Could be a badly molded bullet. I would fire another string of five rounds with carefully inspected bullets.

[ms3635v]

I used the Hogdon bullet years ago and I was using 48 grains in my Zouave. But, as Phil has said, there may be an issue with the way the bullets are cast. A team mate had a really difficult time shooting the Hogdon in his two band Colt rifle with a Hoyt barrel so he changed the bullet, he is now using the 315 grain semi-wadcutter. One of my observations during the time I used the Hogdon was the skirt was a tad too thick and the cavity was not deep enough...solution, had a new core pin made. One other issue, if it hasn't been mentioned yet, is the crown on the muzzle in good shape?

[jonk]

I don't have a PH specifically so can't help there; I have shot this bullet with excellent results out of several guns though, including most recently a teammate's relined original 55 (I think) with a 7 groove setup, so very similar. A few observations:

-Yes, it is a fairly thick-skirted design. NE Trader from sutler's makes a core pin that thins out the skirt a tad and makes the cavity a little deeper. This turned a very good design into an excellent design.
-That said it likes a heavier charge. When I got the mold I started at 38 gr and worked up with 1 gr increments. 45 is JUST where it started to group. I finally settled on 48 gr of 3f goex. With the original pin I'd guess you might have to go a tad higher yet.
-I'm not surprised about easy loading. That huge bottom lube groove ensures the bore stays full of soft fouling that doesn't coke up. I've gone 50 rounds just to see if it could be done with loading on the last shot as easy as on the 2nd shot.

In short, the flyer could be a void in the bullet, a shooter error (nah, never the nut behind the trigger!), a powder charge just on the edge of 'enough' or just a fluke. Worth retrying.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Three things could produce keyholes: hard lead, bad crown, or bullet not stabilizing due to speed ( more powder needed)

[Fred Jr]

Also bullet being too small.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Ditto Brothers Lou and Fred.

Key holes are fairly straight forward to ID the cause, and just as easy to remedy.

Ensure you're using PURE lead if possible, or the SOFTEST lead.

I've been shooting a Hodgdon in my beloved Fayetteville for years, using 43g 3F Goex with great results - even under windy conditions.

In this case, it's not likely the shooter, or the piece, but the projectiles themselves. Either too hard, too small or both.

Likewise my rounds are sized to the barrel that I can shoot her all day without patching - granted if the lube is fresh! So shooting from a "fouled" barrel shouldn't really play into this equation.

Good luck!

[Southron Sr.]

Well, to start with, the Parker-Hale Naval Rifles have FIVE Groove Barrels that have Progressive Depth Rifling. With PDR you can shoot an undersize bullet with accuracy-that is why the British dropped the size of their issue Enfield Pritchett Balls from .568 to .550 and found that they had better accuracy! [Note:The Pritchett Ball was paper patched which increased he diameter somewhat.]


With NON-PDR Rifles, you cannot have a bullet any less than .002" under bore diameter for best accuracy.

Anyway, REGARDLESS of what I was doing, I would weigh each and every bullet and separate them into "Lots" of Plus or Minus 1/2 Grain. As for the "Light" bullets, they go back into the casting pot because they have hidden air pockets that could account for a flyer IF the bullet was shot.

The breech, tang and tang screw should be Glass Bedded. Every Parker-Hale I have ever worked on had too much wood cut out of the breech area of the stock. P-H did that to so the parts would snap together at final assembly and save time of those workers.

GOOD LUCK

P.S. The Army of Northern Virginia ran a series of experiments in 1862 using all the rifles then in use in the ANV at the time. Most rifles and rifle-musekts were equally accurate out to 500 yards.

They found the Enfield Naval Rifles to be accurate out to 800-900 yards. That was the reason the Naval Rifles were the "weapon of choice" to be issued to the man of the ANV Sharpshooter Batalions.

http://www.amazon.com/Shock-Troops-Confederacy-Sharpshooter-Battalions/dp/0964958597

[brimorse]

Greetings Mike,

It might be worth while to pull the barrel to see what is stamped on the underside. This last spring I took mine off to have it re-crowned and found the following:

3408

Brian


3397We've got a new member working up a load for his English -barreled 2-band Parker Hale Enfield.

With a 0.576 Hodgdon bullet on 45 Grains 3Ffg, it is bench-grouping about 1.5 inches at 50-yards (all inside the 10 ring) BUT it tossed a keyhole-flyer out into the 5-ring. (see attached.pdf image)

This was done with a dirty gun (not cleaned after 12 previous shots at 43 grains, and most were flyers with several keyholes).

Shooter reports that there was NO resistance in loading even shot #20.

So, with a gun that can group 1.5-inches, why the keyhole???

I would like to hear from other 2-band PH owners, BTW. I'm sufficiently experienced to know the typical causes of Keyholes.

But I want to hear about YOUR experience SPECIFICALLY with the PH 2-bander with a British made barrel with the 7 lands and grooves....

Thanks in advance!!!

-Mike

3397

[Eggman]

Anyway, REGARDLESS of what I was doing, I would weigh each and every bullet and separate them into "Lots" of Plus or Minus 1/2 Grain.


This string is one of the reasons everybody and their dog refers to this website.
Personally I would never own a minie rifle with five grooves, or seven grooves, or 14 grooves. Remember the lead has to squeeze into these tiny little grooves. To force the lead in there consistantly will likely require a hellofa blast. Flinch time boys (and girls -- sorry). There was a reason the two sides used umpteen hundred thousand THREE GROOVE muskets.

Anyway the recommendation above -- separate out the "Plus or Minus(ers)" of one-half grain- is most interesting. This consistency of one-half a grain out of 500 is a level of persnikityness I am not constitutionally capable of. I do however make it a point to separate out the minies with see-thru cracks in the skirt. You'll NEVER convince me half a grain makes any difference.

Working with a new guy this past week, him using an off-the-shelf Euroarms Mississippi, he achieved a one hole group at 50 yds despite a 94 pound trigger pull shooting minies from a Lee .540 New Style $23 minie mould (Ed. note: trigger is now corrected). To the newby out there. before you go to the trouble and expense and misery of bullet weighing, barrel bedding, tang bedding, etc. etc. etc. to achieve ---- basically no change at 50 and 100 yards, do some work on the range first and see what you can get on the cheap.

What bothers me is there are maybe fifty or a hundred or two hundred or even more potential new skirmishers out there reading this who love the Civil War stuff but have little or no experience shooting these guns. Are they thinking, "My gosh, there's no way I'll ever be able to shoot with these folks?? Let's see, I need a hat, a uniform, leathers, a musket, ammo, a membership, and, oh yeah, a bullet scale, a vernier caliper and a and a - oh hell with it."

[Maillemaker]

Well, Egg, it's the nature of tinkerers, I guess.

Lots of people when they reload ammunition for modern firearms do everything in exacting detail. I simply wanted to make plinking ammo for my .45. So I don't size my bullets - I tumble lube them in Lee Alox. I don't sort my brass by headstamp. The only thing I'm particular about is the powder charge, and I did not do any load workups for accuracy, I just used the recommended load out of my reloading manual. Accuracy is good enough for me.

Can you get lucky and not have to do any work to a gun or ammo to have an accurate gun? Sure.

Some folks like accounting for every variable they can.

I was pinched for time this week with the skirmish coming up this weekend so I did not weigh my bullets and reject them as I usually do. I started to but I noticed with my new pour method (making the lead slide down the sprue plate into the hole) that I am getting consistently higher bullet weights, probably due to less voids. So I need to re-baseline my average weight with the new pour style. Then I'll go back to weighing bullets again. :)

As you can see from my posts here:

http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthread.php/7629-Lyman-575213PH-weights
http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthread.php/7644-RCBS-Hodgdon-bullet-weights
http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/showthread.php/7643-RCBS-500M-Weights

A 7-grain spread is not unheard of. Is it enough to make a difference in accuracy? I don't know. But it's pretty easy to weight the bullets and weed out anything outside of +/- .5% of average. This gives me a spread of about 4 grains.

Steve

[Eggman]

Steve - for shucks and grins (after this next skirmish) shoot a few groups - passed bullets vs. the rejects. Post here. I can't do it -- all my bullets are rejects.

[John Bly]

I weigh my bullets to cull any that are grossly over or under weight. A spread of 5 grains is fine for the shooting we do at a skirmish. Once I kept rejects for about a year and then went and shot them for practice. Guess what? They shot as good as any others.

I dip my powder charges, never weigh them. Go shoot with 40 gr, 45 gr and 50 grains and they will probably all go into one group, so what difference will 1/2 grain make. Heck I spill more than that loading the musket. By the way, I'm classified expert in musket and carbine.

The bullet base or skirt is the most important part of the bullet. Any imperfection here can cause a flyer. The base is the last thing to leave the barrel under pressure. A void or lap in the skirt will cause uneven forces which can and will alter the bullet's course or even cause it to tumble if it is bad enough. Good soft minie bullets that will obturate to fill the rifling are a must for accurate shooting in muskets.

[ian45662]

My semi wadcutters
weigh about 315 grains. My big minie weighs about 510 grains. With the same powder charge at 50 yards the big mines will hit about 2" lower than the little 315 grain pills. Just some food for thought. In another musket when switching from the rapine swc and the gompf swc I had to up the charge about 5 grains to get the bullet to get the best groups. It is just slightly heavier but it hits in the exact same place as the rapine bullets with 5 grains less powder.

[Fred Jr]

I have to agree with Eggy and John on this. I tried to weigh my bullets once, that was enough! Used to be expert in all firearms. I guess I'm just not anal enough to go through all those little procedures. Cast'em, load'em and shoot'em. If I see a hole in the base I will set those aside or a bad skirt but that is it. Been using a drop charger for 42 years. Maybe if I had done all those other things I would have done even better but it would have driven me crazy!!!!!

Just my humble opinion!

Looking for a place to shoot at the Gator.

Fred 1097

12TH PA

[jonk]

You know, the discussion has turned to one of 'to weigh or not to weigh' regarding projectiles, which, a void in the skirt aside, has no bearing on the keyholing question. It's also one like asking which lube is best... sure to start an argument. I tried it, and didn't find it mattered any. But back to the question of why, a lot of good answers have been suggested. Looking at each in turn:
1. If the crown was buggered up, I think you'd see more than ONE keyhole, or at least a number of flyers.
2. Ditto on the lead being too hard.
3. Therefore, I think it's a question of insufficient velocity and stabilization, and/or a bullet that snuck past inspection or had a large internal void.

[John Bly]

As Jonk said, bad bullet or try more powder. The way the rest grouped shows that the rifle is probably OK.

[Charlie Hahn]

Hi,

Just for giggles, How this is the groove near the base? If the cavity and the groove depth or in a marginal alignment, it is possible the base groove and the skirt could rupture just as the bullet exits the muzzle. If you have a captive core pin, or a worn cam pin on an old style base plug you could process a variant bullet with a thin groove to cavity condition... for what it is worth.

Charlie

[Rob FreemanWBR]

As Jonk pointed out - to weigh, or not to weigh...

Two years ago I weighed my musket rounds (Hodgsons) and tossed out (recast) those to be above or below the desired weight in grains.

Bottom-line: I didn't notice ANY improvement in my performance/scores for individuals/team matches, and haven't wasted my time in weighing bullets ever since.

In short, "the juice wasn't worth the squeeze", and trying to eliminate the bullet weight variable in my overall accuracy algorithm made little/no noticeable difference.

Given the distances we're dealing with (150 - 300 feet NOT yards), shooting low velocity projectiles...

BUT I am still inspect of EACH and every round that I cast by hand, giving each bullet a through visual once over. I'm looking for any flaws, dimples, voids, whiskers, etc, especially in the lube groves and the inside and outside of the SKIRT! Those found to be less than "perfect" are returned to the lead pot for another chance at making the grade.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

I weigh my bullets to cull any that are grossly over or under weight. A spread of 5 grains is fine for the shooting we do at a skirmish. Once I kept rejects for about a year and then went and shot them for practice. Guess what? They shot as good as any others.

I dip my powder charges, never weigh them. Go shoot with 40 gr, 45 gr and 50 grains and they will probably all go into one group, so what difference will 1/2 grain make. Heck I spill more than that loading the musket. By the way, I'm classified expert in musket and carbine.

The bullet base or skirt is the most important part of the bullet. Any imperfection here can cause a flyer. The base is the last thing to leave the barrel under pressure. A void or lap in the skirt will cause uneven forces which can and will alter the bullet's course or even cause it to tumble if it is bad enough. Good soft minie bullets that will obturate to fill the rifling are a must for accurate shooting in muskets.

When the 1855 rifle was being developed, the amounts of propellant was thought to follow a certain "metric" (standard), such that the French who were desirous that all things meet their "metric" (standard) of the powers of 10 believed their ammunition should have a powder-to-ball ratio of 1:10 (1 grain of powder for every 10 grains of lead). Some other countries established their own "metrics" of 1:9 or 1:11. For the Model 1855 Rifle, the United States adopted a "metric" of 1:8 (1 grain of powder for every 8 grains of lead), which another way of viewing this is much like your "5 grain spread" but this metric is an 8-grain spread. Meaning that per the 1:8 powder-to-ball ratio, you can be off by as much as 8 grains without necessarily affecting the path of the ball. Just how much that 8-grains changes the ball's impact on paper depends upon a great many things, many of which depend solely on the shooter. But I am with you, a half grain of black powder or even a tenth of a grain is not going to make any appreciable change on the path of the bullet at 50 or 100 yards, and probably won't make a significant change at any greater range. The powder charge for my 26-bore Whitworth is just 85 grains at 500 yards using a 600-grain bullet! It's the same change that was used in 1864 when the rifle shot an 8-inch group at 500 yards, and is roughly a 1:7 powder-to-ball ratio.