pure lead or not

[Bullseye54]

Well I finally melted some of the lead I have..

1st was some lead pipe and sheathing, aprox. 30 lbs. that I used for a base measurement to check my lead tester.
This "free" lead pipe measured .035/.038 on my "Cabine Tree" lead tester. Chart says .015/.035 is pure lead.
Next was some of the 250lbs of "pure lead" I bought on special from Roto metals awhile back.. It measured .065.
Which according to the chart with my lead tester is 25-1, not pure lead!
Can't trust claims of "pure lead" even from a company like Roto Metals I guess..
Would anyone know : How hard is too hard for minies??

[Maillemaker]

Hardness testers can result in varying results.

http://www.castingstuff.com/cabinetree_llc___lead_testers.htm

"NOTE: IF you use exactly the same procedure each time your results will be consistent. Varying the "first touch" will cause the most errors. Concentrate on that first touch. On hard bullets, they can literally be held in place by that touch, BUT on pure lead just a hint of a touch is correct. On pure lead any touch is penetration and it will give you high readings."

It is possible that Rotometals has made a mistake or the alloy is impure, but I would doubt it.

Steve

[Bullseye54]

I think Roto made a mistake.. I had the 1st batch that is 100 year old lead pipe (and free)
that I used to calibrate my tester and finger.. So I'm almost positive the Roto is 25-1 or close to and not pure.
But I see what you mean about a large area for error without a good touch with this tester..
I was a machinist for 22 years, detail and precision assembly inspector for 20 years..
Maybe temp. variations between batches?? I guess I have plenty of lead for my Maynard now..
They should give a pc. of pure lead and hard lead marked with the hardness
for calibration testing and practice with every tester sold...Especially for what they charge for them..

[Eggman]

Very very good suggestion Joe. Vendors - how about one or three of you doing this (selling test samples) on sutler row.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Find a local junk yard with an X-ray machine to analyze a sample

[Eggman]

I have my robust supply of "pure" stuff (X-ray room sheets Lou Lou) but would enjoy an "official" calibrated sample from somebody like Big Steve to compare against -- with my fun little Lee testor.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Joe,

Hard lead is "too" hard when you start shooting key holes, or your accuracy is adversely affecting in shooting consistent groups.

As for commercial product claims/advertisements - always REMEMBER: "nolo contendere"!

Personally, I'm not sure if you're not "gilding the lily" in using a new-fangled lead hardness tester - NO disrespect intended brother!

For me, I still shoot backstop lead. In "testing" for hardness I use what worked for grandpa, employing an extremely rigid, two-phased-testing regimen which I'm sure would appeal to the vast majority of skinflints in the association.

Under my stringent protocol, I first use the Chink Test. If a dropped lead ingot goes, "chink" when hitting a cement floor (deck), it's automatically classified as "hard" and relegated to smoothbore use.

Those ingots which don't clearly "ring" when dropped, then undergo the second phase of rigorous testing, better known as the FN Abrasion Test. Using my fingernail (FN), if I can clearly scratch the surface of the respective ingot, then it's then clearly composed of "soft" lead.

For the boo-birds & naysayers, look down your noses all you want. But these tried & true "tests", as rudimentary as they seem, have successfully served 3 generations of competitive skirmishers very well.

Final note - "hard" lead ingots don't turn dark grey (oxidation), as quickly as those made of soft lead.

[Maillemaker]

I suppose the only way to be certain of what you're buying is to get a Letter of Certification when you buy it.

Rotometals has the capability to do metals analysis and they sell it as a service:

http://www.rotometals.com/Metals-Analysis-XRF-Testing-s/59.htm

If you believe they sent an alloy instead of the real deal if you call and explain your findings they may run an analysis on a piece of lead for free.

Steve

[Lou Lou Lou]

Soft/ pure lead is 0-5 BHN ( Brinell hardness). I prefer the LBT hardness tester.
low tech and reads in BHN

[Bullseye54]

I remember my Dad would do the sound test and finger nail test...
Maybe I'm overcomplicating this whole process.. Going to get a lead
thermometer and make some minies from each batch and compare the results..
And your right about the sound, there is a distinct difference in the sound of the 2 batches when
I hit 2 ingots together, the lead pipe ingots has
a very dull "clunk" compared to the sharper "clink" of the Roto metals..

[Maillemaker]

So send them a sample and have them tell you the alloy. You don't have to tell them where you got it until you get your results back. It's a bit pricey at $50 but if it comes back not pure lead I'd ask for a refund on that, too.

If it comes back not pure lead have them swap it out. My experience is they have good customer service. Once I accidentally bought zinc instead of lead. It was because their web randomly presents items for sale on the page as it is generated. I had hit the "back" button, spotted the item of the same price that was previously lead, and turns out it had become Zinc instead. I didn't notice the error when I paid and hit "submit". They exchanged the zinc for lead, even minus the amount I had melted in my lead pot and then drained into a bowl.

Speaking of which, you might double-check your order and make sure you actually ordered pure lead and did not screw up like I did.

Were your ingots stamped "LEAD"? I think they told me that if it's pure lead it gets stamped "LEAD".

Steve

[Eggman]

Pure lead. Hmmmmmmm. I recall about twenty years ago when my friend Fastidious Funkmeyer came over, tears streaming down his cheeks, crying that all the balls he was casting had big smiles in them. I asked him what he was using. He said pure lead. In fact he said it was so pure he had skimmed and skimmed and skimmed and skimmed and skimmed and that the lead was pure as baby's breath. I told him pure lead wont cast -- dirty it up. Problem solved.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

I remember my Dad would do the sound test and finger nail test...
Maybe I'm overcomplicating this whole process.. Going to get a lead
thermometer and make some minies from each batch and compare the results..
And your right about the sound, there is a distinct difference in the sound of the 2 batches when
I hit 2 ingots together, the lead pipe ingots has
a very dull "clunk" compared to the sharper "clink" of the Roto metals..


As the old GI Joe cartoons used to say, "Knowing is half the battle!" Just sort the clunks from the clinks, try out a test lot to verify your findings. If the clunks cast and shoot well - problem solved.

Happy casting!!!

Re the lead thermometer - save your money (my opinion). Set your pot on high to get the lead in the pot melted, then turn it down a bit. A hot mold is important, so the first 10-12 castings I automatically discard as the mold heats up. Over time you'll learn the proper temp settings, and casting techniques (angles you hold the mold as you pour). Too "hot" lead typically causes "waves" or dimples/flaws in a minie skirt, as well as "whiskers".

[Jim Barber]

In addition to the "clink vs. clunk" and fingernail tests, I was taught that a Minie which can be deformed by squeezing (with two fingers, no cheating) is shootable soft lead, and one which cannot be squashed visibly is too hard. I can see how there'd be some variability in this last method which may make it suitable only for Barbers, since we genetically share a uniform grip strength on our balls.

Your balls may vary.

Jim Barber

Grove City, OH

[John Bly]

I was taught early on that you should be able to deform the base on hollow base minies by squezzing between your thumb and the curl in your forefinger. If they are too hard for this test they are too hard to perform properly. Many say you must use absolutely pure lead but lead with a small bit of tin generally casts a better bullet as it decreases the surface tension of the melt. I mean a small bit on the order of 100lead/1 tin.

[jonk]

Well, with the cabin tree tester, I usually take 10 readings from 10 identical ingots from the same batch, average, and go with that. Using that approach I usually am pretty confident in getting a true reading.

That said, having it read double what it should tells me that either the tester is out of calibration or it isn't pure.

Now as to the bigger question of how soft is soft enough... I both use the tester and the low tech approaches.

If it goes clunk when I drop it, if I can scratch it with my thumbnail, it gets tested as possible. In the process of that, I expect to see that when it melts, it turns blue, purple, and gold. If it makes it through that, the resulting test samples go to the 10 sample test, and assuming it passes that, I cast up some minie balls and do the squeeze test. If it passes that last phase, I proclaim it soft enough and go for it.

If it fails any of the above, it is usually in the melt test or 10 sample hardness test. Assuming it is close to pure, it gets relegated to carbine- my smith likes it pure, but 99% pure is good enough for that- or for revolver balls, patched round balls, or alloying. If it is harder yet, it gets used for smokeless bullets or smoothbore.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

I smile inwardly when folks tell me that they load their muzzle stuffers by extracting the projectile from the tube with their fingers, vice using their teeth, due to their trepidation of "deforming" the minie's skirt from chomping down...

Unless their mandibles typically exert comparable PSI as a Great White Shark, when biting down, this isn't really a problem or concern...

That's just another fine example of our beloved sport - skirmishing is a great deal "art" NOT science.

So, one man's meat...

[Maillemaker]

I smile inwardly when folks tell me that they load their muzzle stuffers by extracting the projectile from the tube with their fingers, vice using their teeth, due to their trepidation of "deforming" the minie's skirt from chomping down...

I am always astonished when I see people putting lead in their mouths. :confused:

Steve

[Eggman]

Yer easily astonishmetabilable Steve. It's how I make up time shooting a three bander.

[Maillemaker]

Yer easily astonishmetabilable Steve.

I am. Sometimes I astonish myself!


It's how I make up time shooting a three bander.

I make up time by just throwing the bullet down range. It's about as effective, too. Team shooting, anyway. :)

You guys who chew on bullets ever get your lead levels checked? I get mine checked every year as part of the blood work on my physical. It's just a check box the doctor has to add.

Steve

[Eggman]

Blood checks always perfectly normal. Generally the lead bullet has no affect so long as you don't eat it.

[jonk]

I'm not going to get into the question of whether biting a bullet to remove from a cap plug increases lead contamination, deforms the base, or whatever, but while I entirely agree that what works for you doesn't work for me (and vice versa) for those who think it is a time saver... consider the steps required for loading that way vs. pulling the bullet with fingers. Transferring the case to the mouth is one more step up, and one more down. Just something to consider.

[Chris Sweeney]

If you're pulling the bullet by hand you need:
1 hand to hold the case
1 to pull the bullet
ummm, another hand to hold the musket??
I've seen some pretty fancy dance moves watching people pulling by hand while holding onto a musket (and sometimes the ramrod), while trying to make sure they are keeping hands, face, etc. away from the muzzle.
I pull a case out of my box with my left hand; it goes straight to my mouth
teeth catch lube ring; pull case away and dump powder down barrel
My hand is still right @ mouth level more or less; grab bullet.

Not sure how any of that constitutes "extra" motion.
if you have to bite hard enough to deform bullets or scrape lead off of them you probably need to not jam them in the case so hard . . .

[Bullseye54]

No x-ray machines in the area for lead samples , good idea Lou.. Ordered from "Zip Metals" certified 99.9 pure lead ingot and 25-1 to use as a standard for my lead tester..
As far as lead poisoning, when I was a kid my dad had me rebuilding engines and other greasy projects.. Used leaded gas to clean parts plus lead deposits on engine parts.. I tested positive for lead .. Doctor blamed many of my medical problems later in life on lead exposure in the past.. Put lead in my mouth or anything in my mouth after handling lead? Absolutely NEVER.. When working with lead, gloves, dust mask and I try to stay out of indoor gun ranges... Just the dust from opening and closing a window with lead paint can damage a child's health.. Us old buggers not so much, the worst damage is done when a child... But it accumulates in your body over time and will ruin your health and mental facilities, memory, short tempers etc. which explains a lot with some people. ; )

[jonk]

If you're pulling the bullet by hand you need:
1 hand to hold the case
1 to pull the bullet
ummm, another hand to hold the musket??
I've seen some pretty fancy dance moves watching people pulling by hand while holding onto a musket (and sometimes the ramrod), while trying to make sure they are keeping hands, face, etc. away from the muzzle.
I pull a case out of my box with my left hand; it goes straight to my mouth
teeth catch lube ring; pull case away and dump powder down barrel
My hand is still right @ mouth level more or less; grab bullet.

Not sure how any of that constitutes "extra" motion.
if you have to bite hard enough to deform bullets or scrape lead off of them you probably need to not jam them in the case so hard . . .

Again, the main thing is a routine that works for YOU. And perhaps saying that it creates an extra step isn't quite right, but to clarify what I meant:
Mouth routine:
1. Reach down to cartridge box.
2. Put cartridge to mouth.
3. Move powder to muzzle.
4. Reach up to mouth.
5. Move bullet to muzzle.
6. Pick up ramrod.
7. Ram home.
8. Set down rod.
9. Raise gun.
10. Reach to cap pouch.
11. Cap gun.
12. Raise to shoulder.
13. Cock and fire.
So 13 steps.
Compared to the hand routine.
1. Reach down to cartridge box.
2. Move cartridge to hand. Personally I hold the gun barrel in the palm of my left hand, leaving my thumb and forefinger free to grip the bullet.
3. With bullet grasped in left forefinger and thumb, pull down on cartridge.
4. Pour in powder, as cartridge is only an inch or two from the muzzle.
5. Set bullet on muzzle.
6. Pick up rod.
7. Ram home.
8. Set down rod.
9. Raise gun.
10. Reach to cap pouch.
11. Cap gun.
12. Raise to shoulder.
13. Cock and fire.

Point being, it's still 13 steps, yes. But it involves no motion from your face to the muzzle, meaning one less arm motion, if not one less step. That motion may only take half a second, but over the course of an event, might make enough time to load one more round.... all I'm saying is, when I started this, I timed it both ways, how many rounds I could get off in 5 minutes each way. I came up with 13 aimed shots for the way I do it, 12 for the mouth routine, so it's faster for me.

As to the whole lead issue... you fire caps with lead styphenate in them as the priming compound, you get some lead exposure. I would imagine you already get some from handling the bullet, albeit very minimally, but if you don't suck on the bullet I can't see how holding it in your teeth would add more or less lead exposure.

[Maillemaker]

but if you don't suck on the bullet I can't see how holding it in your teeth would add more or less lead exposure.

Take a bullet in your hand. Touch lightly it to a blank piece of paper. Remove bullet from paper. Examine paper. See that grey spot? That's lead.

Experiment with how lightly you can touch the bullet to the paper without making a mark you can see. It doesn't take much.

Most of us play with quite a bit of lead, especially since most of us probably cast our own bullets. So like I said, I highly recommend each of you get an annual physical (it's free under most insurance plans) and ask your doctor to check the "lead levels" check box on your blood workup request sheet. If you're worried about your doctor knowing you do shooting sports tell them you make stained glass windows.

Steve

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Take a bullet in your hand. Touch lightly it to a blank piece of paper. Remove bullet from paper. Examine paper. See that grey spot? That's lead.

Experiment with how lightly you can touch the bullet to the paper without making a mark you can see. It doesn't take much.

Most of us play with quite a bit of lead, especially since most of us probably cast our own bullets. So like I said, I highly recommend each of you get an annual physical (it's free under most insurance plans) and ask your doctor to check the "lead levels" check box on your blood workup request sheet. If you're worried about your doctor knowing you do shooting sports tell them you make stained glass windows.

Steve

Bullets or no bullets, mouth or fingers... Everyone (not just us skirmishers) are exposed to lead everyday just going thru everyday life (unless you're Bubble Boy). Aside from loading on the line, or handling ammo at the range I personally try to minimize my expose by wearing rubber gloves whenever casting, sizing, lubing, loading rounds. That maybe a bit much...

But I think that as long as you have ADEQUATE ventilation always whenever casting that goes far. I also go out of my way (now) to avoid eating lead paint chips and sprinkling powdered lead into my goblets of wine (like the Romans did to sweeten their bitter dregs).

Changing subject re soft lead - if you REALLY want to speed up your loading (which I'm not too keen on - its the aimed shots that COUNT) get used to holding your ramrod in your non-loading hand. I do this. It takes time, but it is a time saver and those extra nano-seconds towards ensuring that I'm sending well aimed rounds down range. Best of all I don't have to drag around a pig-sticker or bayonet, or pound one into the rocky soil prior to a match.

[Michael Bodner]

Hey, I've been casting bullets and pulling them with my teeth for over 12 years now. And I'm no dopier then when I started....

And if I was, would anyone be able to notice....

[Maillemaker]

Hey, I've been casting bullets and pulling them with my teeth for over 12 years now. And I'm no dopier then when I started....

Have you had your lead levels checked? If so, what were the results?

Steve

[Eggman]

There's a heavy coat of lube between the bullet and the teeth. More accurate would be having our lube levels checked.

[Michael Bodner]

Now that I know about the "Lead levels" check-box during routine blood tests, I'll have it done next annual exam...

[dennis g]

My boss has been handling lead on a daily basis for 30 years, no elevated lead levels. I have access to all the free questionable lead I want, but I still buy my musket lead from Fred Herlinger, it's the best.

[Maillemaker]

There's a heavy coat of lube between the bullet and the teeth. More accurate would be having our lube levels checked.

Well, I guess it depends on how you lube them and what you lube them with. I lube my bullets in a Lyman Lubrisizer, so the sides of the bullet are pretty much naked lead with the lube being packed into the grease grooves. I took a bullet and lightly gripped it in my bench vice with a piece of paper folded around the bullet. Mostly lube got onto the paper, but clearly some lead did also.

I know some people dip their bullets so maybe that acts like a protective coating. Though as soft as my lube is it's hard to imagine it protecting much.

But the real proof of the pudding is a lead levels serum check. There's guys who have been casting over on castboolits for 30 years and have fine lead levels, so I'm pretty convinced that casting and regular bullet handling isn't terribly dangerous. We need some guys who have been sucking bullets for 30 years to sign up for the test! :)

http://i.imgur.com/uUUeWme.png

[ChrisWBR]

Ok, I've been using my teeth on the Minies for 38+ years, my lead levels get checked each year and every year they are well within the set limits. It never changes. I think this lead hysteria is greatly overrated. Now, eating paint chips, or messing with a lead acetate solution is a different story and I'm sure that will elevate levels. But casting in a ventilated area and taking the Minies out of the tube with your teeth just doesn't seem to matter.

[Bullseye54]

Symptoms of lead poisoning are varied. They may affect many parts of the body. Most of the time, lead poisoning builds up slowly. It follows repeated exposures to small quantities of lead.
Lead toxicity is rare after a single exposure or ingestion of lead.
Signs of repeated lead exposure include:


abdominal pain
abdominal cramps
aggressive behavior
constipation
sleep problems
headaches
irritability
loss of developmental skills in children
loss of appetite
fatigue
high blood pressure
numbness or tingling in the extremities
memory loss
anemia
kidney dysfunction

Since a child’s brain is still developing, lead can lead to mental impairment. Signs of mental impairment may include:


behavior problems
low IQ
poor grades at school
problems with hearing
learning difficulties(short and long term)
growth delays

[Maillemaker]

Ok, I've been using my teeth on the Minies for 38+ years, my lead levels get checked each year and every year they are well within the set limits. It never changes.

Well, there you have it. An anecdote, but it doesn't sound to me like it's too dangerous if 38+ years of biting bullets doesn't do anything. Thanks for posting.

Steve

[Bullseye54]

Yep like I said, your .... Hmmm forgot what I was going to say.. Oh yea.. no that wasn't it... ack never mind

[Chris Sweeney]

" if you REALLY want to speed up your loading (which I'm not too keen on - its the aimed shots that COUNT) get used to holding your ramrod in your non-loading hand"


Yeah, right! I can barely hold on to musket with my left hand! I am probably the least ambidexterous person in the N-SSA. If I tried to hold a musket, a ramrod, and a pulled bullet in my left hand while trying to pour powder, well, it might be amusing for my team mates to watch . . .

[Eggman]

Ok for one of those lightweight Springfield rods but the Enfield rod weighs 19 pounds.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

" if you REALLY want to speed up your loading (which I'm not too keen on - its the aimed shots that COUNT) get used to holding your ramrod in your non-loading hand"


Yeah, right! I can barely hold on to musket with my left hand! I am probably the least ambidexterous person in the N-SSA. If I tried to hold a musket, a ramrod, and a pulled bullet in my left hand while trying to pour powder, well, it might be amusing for my team mates to watch . . .

Don't count yourself out TOO fast Chris re holding your ram rod. I'm a southpaw, shooting arms built expressly for right-ees... As for a pulled bullet - that'll have to be removed from your equation. You'll have to use your teeth to extract bullets from their tubes.

When no one's looking, give it a try while practicing. Who knows you may take to it like a duck to water! I've been competing in this manner for the last 5 years and wished I "made the leap" much earlier!

[John Bly]

I've been skirmishing for 33 years and biting bullets that long and casting them before that. I had my lead level checked last year and it came back normal. The Dr. asked why I wanted a lead level test. I told him that I had read that the symptoms were irritability, memory loss and diarrhea, the same as getting old and that I want to know which it was. He confirmed that I was just getting old.

Your body cannot absorb elemental lead very well. It absorbs lead oxide much better. If you keep any bullets long enough to get a white coating on them, don't bite them.

[norman horne, 12321]

I'm curious. Do mini "biters' use the same method to extract smoothbore rounds from their loading tubes?

[Muley Gil]

There's a heavy coat of lube between the bullet and the teeth. More accurate would be having our lube levels checked.

OH NO!! Think where they would have to put the dipstick!!!!!!!

[Rich Foster]

Shooters using rubber tubes for smoothbore rounds pinch the tube eject ball in fingers on other hand and dump powder in barrel then place ball in barrel. I uses 1/2' diameter x 2 3/4" long clear capped hard plastic tubes for powder and place balls in a tin cup on belt. but have some rubber tubes to convert if rain is happening. water soaked roundballs in a cup don't shoot very well. Rich Foster

[Rob FreemanWBR]

I'm curious. Do mini "biters' use the same method to extract smoothbore rounds from their loading tubes?

Norman,

I don't (bite), nor do any of my teammates (from my observations) while shooting smoothies.

I do however still hold my ramrod when loading, and manage to safely and efficiently load my H&P during team matches.