M1855 Type II from Armi Sport - NSSA OK?

[LongRifle]

Just received one of these M1855s.

Yesterday, while I was studying NSSA stuff, it occurred to me based on what I was reading that this rifle might not be NSSA approved.

Find below the text describing the rifle from Taylor's and Co (which is where the rifle came from). I have sent them an email, but I thought I could get some real life input from you guys before they respond next week. The Sutler that sold me the rifle (not Taylors) said it was indeed NSSA approved.

Can anyone offer input?


Text from Taylor's below:::::

U.S .Model 1855 2nd Model Percussion Rifle, .58 Caliber

Features include a steel nose cap with a 2-leaf military-style sight, patchbox and steel butt plate. The lock plate is dated "1859" and stamped "US Springfield" and features a non-functioning Maynard Tape Primer system. The lid is stamped with the American Eagle and will open and close. The one-piece stock is American walnut with a hand-oiled finish.

[Francis J. Miller Jr, 02601]

Longrifle,

Below is the link to the approved arms of the NSSA, this can be found from the home page, go and click on the Information tab, then scroll down to Approved Arms. I have it posted here so you can get there quicker.

http://www.n-ssa.org/NATIONAL/SAC6_2009.pdf


If you have any more questions, John Holland can verify this for you or any other member of the SAC (Small Arms Committee).

Hope this helps.

[Francis J. Miller Jr, 02601]

Longrifle,

In section 2 Rifle Muskets, US Rifle Musket Model 1855, Type I, .58 caliber, sub-section (3) is showing ArmiSport (Taylor's & Co.).

This is showing a Type I by Taylor's & Co., your post is descibing a Type II, which is not showing Taylor's & Co.

I would think the one you are looking at is most likely NSSA approved. But I would confirn that from one of the members of the SAC to be sure, before spending the money.

[LongRifle]

I did find that data on the NSSA website, and thought it was odd that the type I is OK, but the Type II is not listed

I am just now looking at joining NSSA, I do have an 1861 and 1842 that are both clearly approved, but I already purchased this 1855 and the sutler told me it was OK... but I did not verify

How do I get a SAC member to look this over??? I just figured out what SAC meant yesterday...

[Francis J. Miller Jr, 02601]

Most times an SAC member, or fellow NSSA member with more knowledge of the Rules/Approved Arms than I or others have, will read these posts and give you an accurate answer.

You might not get a fast reponse to this,(1 or 2 days), because of the Gator Shoot being held at the Fort this weekend, where they might be participating in, but rest assured you will get an answer.

Also, Thank You for wanting to join the NSSA. There is always a place for a new member(s) to enjoy this hobby. And when you find a team or a team finds you, then Welcome Aboard.

Just wondering? How did you find out about the NSSA? i.e. Friends, Relatives, Internet(NSSA Website), Re-Enactment, Articles in papers or magazines etc.

One of the biggest topics from time to time on the bulletin board is recruiting, and where to focus it.

[John Holland]

LongRifle, etal,

The musket in question is indeed NOT approved for use in the N-SSA. That is why it isn't on the Approved Arms List. Neither the Manufacturer, nor the Importer has chosen to submit it to the N-SSA for consideration of a N-SSA Production Approval. It was brought to our attention recently that one vendor had it listed on their website as "N-SSA Approved". This vendor was contacted by the N-SSA's Inspector General, Wade Huffman, who explained that it was not N-SSA Approved and requested that they remove the designation of "N-SSA Approved", which they did.

I have not had the opportunity to see one of these arms personally, therefore I can not hazard a guess as to whether it can be individually approved, or not. From the picture on Taylor's website, their musket appears to have a brass nose cap. That will have to be replaced with an iron nose cap for our purposes. As for the dimensional requirements, it will have to be measured by the Small Arms Committee. The Taylor's 1855 R.M. Type 2 is known in the N-SSA as a Type 3.

The N-SSA Small Arms Committee recognizes 3 distinct types of U.S. Model 1855 Rifle Muskets. Very simply the differences are as follows:

Type 1 - Long Range rear sight, no patch box, brass nose cap.

Type 2 - Short Range rear sight with leaves, no patch box, and either a brass or iron nose cap.

Type 3 - Short Range rear sight with leaves, with a patch box, and an iron nose cap.

Provided the Taylor's 1855 Type 2 is dimensionally correct, and has the proper rear sight, the only change would be the nose cap from brass to iron. The nose cap is the same as on their Model 1861 Springfield.

LongRifle - Please understand we are not trying to discourage you, and will try to help you any way we can. Feel free to contact me direct through the email tab at the bottom of this post to discuss this further, if you wish.

Sincerely,
John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee

[LongRifle]

So a couple of questions to answer

The good news is that mine does indeed have an iron / steel endcap and not a brass one.

It does seem to fit the Type 3 designation that John posted. It has the short range leaf sites, patchbox, and the iron nose cap.

I guess the only question left is whether or not it is dimensioally correct. Not sure what dimensions to look at, OR who I can show it to.

It is identical in length to my 1861 ArmiSport, and laying them side by side the only difference appears to be the lock and the patchbox.


As for how I found out about NSSA, I have been poking around for a long time. I am pretty sure first time I heard of it was either through American Shooter (the show that used to be hosted by Jim Scouten).

I think a great way to recruit would be to have members show up at Cowboy shoots dressed as Civil War vets, and talk about NSSA. NSSA seems right up a Cowboy's alley. We had a guy who used to come dressed as a confederate sgt. He shot a Henry Rifle and a 1860 cap and ball revolver.

[David Disher 12143]

LongRifle:

It sounds like youre heading in the right direction...you got the best expert's opinion in the N-SSA (Mr. Holland), and if anyone can help you, it is he.

What John meant by "dimensionally correct" not only includes the OAL of the gun, but other dimensions as well, including the drop in the stock, the distances between sights, the distances of the barrel bands, etc. N-SSA allows some wiggle room on some of these dimensions, less on others. Best thing to do is get a copy of the rifle dimension requirements, and do your own measurements...of course all final approvals are from the SAC, which will be available during certain times at the Nationals this October. I think John offered you an email chat...take him up on it and get a copy of the checklist for the '55. It would be good to do some measuring of your own, as it is important "what and why" an arm is approved.

Best of luck with your new gun!

Ddisher
110th OVI
12143

[John Holland]

You humble me, Dave. I'm not THAT good....I'm still learning all the time.

But, I am willing to share what I've learned over the years!

John

[Gary B]

LongRifle,
When you come to the Tidewater Regional, bring the '55 with you and we can get our Regional Inspector General to look at it also, and possibly inspect it right there. If you can get the Spec sheet on it from John when you e-mail him, that would be handy also.

And don't let John fool ya ............ he is "DA MAN" of Small Arms !

See ya soon,
Gary B.

[RangerFrog]

What Ddisher and Gary B said. John is being waaay modest, but the fact of the matter is that he is the definitive source for any SAC information you could possibly desire. Run, don't walk, to your keyboard and take advantage of the offered information from him and follow it, and you cannot go wrong. He has been most helpful to me (and countless others) on all sorts of esoteric questions about proper configurations of weapons for N-SSA competition. Getting it before you go to an event will help you get ready and make the SAC acceptance much simpler. BTW, welcome to the interesting and consuming pastime of N-SSA and CW history!

Froggie

[jerry ashley]

Ranger Frog,
John is THE man when it comes to N-SSA arms, his knowage is great.
And he also likes good scrapple!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jerry Ashley 8910V

[LongRifle]

Let me tell you, John has indeed been great, as has everyone I have emailed, PMd, or exchanged posts with. He did send me the spec sheet and I did my own measurements as kind of a preliminary review.

It all looks good to me (says the hopelessly lost newbie)

I appreciate all the help you guys are providing. It has to get tiring dealing with the same old questions over and over from new guys.

THANKS

[Muley Gil]

"good scrapple"

Ain't no such thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! :(

That stuff is NASTY!

[RangerFrog]

For me, Good and Scrapple go together like Honest and Politician. But then again, I come from South of the Mason-Dixon line and won't eat chitterlings, either, so what do I know?

Speaking of knowing, LongRifle, the only way any of us know is to ask or to dig info out of some pretty obscure sites sometimes. You will find that many of the folks who populate this board will be great to talk to and most willing to share their vast knowledge with a newbie... I should know since I was one myself a year or so ago (some would say "still") and folks put up with all of my questions. Most of us "play nicely with others" and "are willing to share." Green

Regards,
Froggie