dipped round balls

[jonk]

So for awhile, I was going the alox routine for sb. Still works fine for my 42. My 16 and Potsdam though have a definite preference for the whole 'thrice dipped in musket lube' routine. Though actually it doesn't seem to matter if 1, 2, or 3 times dipped.

I played around with sprue up, sprue down, and both sides lubed in each configuration. Personally what seems to work for me is sprue down, lube the top of the ball.

So my question is this. With the Potsdam, alox gunks up within 5 shots, requiring a hammer to seat the ball. But the tubes I have from S and S seem to be more suited to a .75; the ball has to be truly pushed into the tube. You can't seat halfway into the mouth and then dip, or the ball falls out.

1. Has anyone experienced this? If so, what did you do?
2. Anyone see any reason why I couldn't seat the ball in the tube and then pour a 9mm shell full of lube into it to harden on top?

[Bruce Cobb 1723V]

1. Use aluminum foil with lube around the ball. That cures your tube and lube problem.
2. Get smaller tubes.

You use a hammer to seat balls?????

[Maillemaker]

You might consider fully dipping the ball, then setting each ball on a square of wax paper, and then stuffing this into the tube. In this way the tube does not shear off the lube when you plug it with the ball.

Steve

[Lou Lou Lou]

Here is another method.

I roll the balls between two farriers rasps. Then I coat them with ALOX and let dry 24 hrs. Repeat Alox. Wait 24 hrs. load tubes and push ball 1/2 way into tube. Tripple dip in MCm using tube as a handle. Shot a 91 with an 8 at 25 yards two weeks ago

[Maillemaker]

Is there anything special about "Farrier Rasps", or will any file do?

Because "Farrier Rasps" seem to cost about $20 each, but you can buy files from Harbor Freight for like $3.

Steve

[John Holland]

Steve - The files have to be very coarse to raise, or roughen, the surface of the ball. If you have any Farriers in your area, or the SCA, ask them about getting a couple of their worn out hoof rasps. In my area of the country I have found they will usually sell them for anywhere up to about $5 apiece.

JDH

[Lou Lou Lou]

I found mine on a cast bullet site

[B-Davis]

I just put 30 at a time in a 2 liter soda bottle with two table spoons of Alox. Put on the cap and shake virgirously for one minute. Let dry 24 hrs and repeat the process. The bass are slightly larger and now coated in Alox.

Bryan

[Chris Sweeney]

In my cadet, I am neither roughing up or dipping the balls. My Lee mold leaves very little sprue, so I basically ignore that too. I shoot a very light-for-smoothbore load, so there is ample room in the case. I push the ball in below the top of the case and then spread a paste of softened lube (Thompsons Bore Butter, lard, and beeswax)level with the top of the case (kind of like lubing pistol cylinders) and set them aside to harden up.

It takes a bit of practice to get the ball and lube out of the case with the lube intact, but it loads easy, doesn't foul too fast (I can never get more than 8 or nine shots off before the heat mirage off of my sheet-metal-thin barrel makes aiming pretty much guesswork.

[kowdok]

I am fortunate that I have my own range in my back yard. I have been experimenting recently with my SB loads. I have 2 Potsdam relines by Bobby Hoyt which measure about .687. I shoot a .675 ball out of them. I just tried 3 ways of prepping the ammo and shooting from a sandbag at 50yds. I first dimple the balls by shaking them in a metal coffee can. Then I rasp with farrier files on the rough side. Using 45 gns of 3F Swiss I lubed some with mcm, some with alox, and some I shot with NO lube. I cleaned between every 6 shots. The mcm shot by far the worst, no pattern at all at 50yds. The alox lubed ammo shot quite a bit better, but not good enough for a decent score. Without question, the naked balls shot the very best, probably would have shot a 90 at 50yds. Both Potsdams performed the same. I have used alox for years, and have felt like it had little or no lubricating effect because I've always had to clean between events. I have yet to try this naked ball approach at a skirmish, but you can bet I plan to try it next time I'm at one.

[Chris Sweeney]

I have to use some sort of lube in my cadet; the bore is so pitted that the crunchies build up fast. I tried Alox and got the 3rd ball stuck about 1/2 way down.

I read the accounts of all the alchemy involved in getting a smoothbore to shoot well and I guess I am really lucky. The bore is .570 and the only off-the-shelf mold is .562 so I have lots of windage. The first time I shot it I just took a dozen of my musket loads (43 grains of 3F Goex) and some of the .562 balls out back. Threw a dollop of lube on the backside of the ball and commenced to firing. Took me a couple of shots to figure out point of aim, then shot (off the bench) 5 shots for a 46 1x. Have not felt the need to change anything since then. Wish I could still shoot that well offhand!

I'm a team shooter; I only shoot individuals to verify aim point. I only have to shoot angle-of-tile to be happy. I was either very lucky or some folks are making the whole process more involved than it needs to be. I realize there are some of us who are more concerned with ultimate accuracy than I am-the real hard part of getting that 90 up to a 97, but I think for a lot of us in the rank and file, good enough is good enough

[Eggman]

. I have yet to try this naked ball approach at a skirmish, but you can bet I plan to try it next time I'm at one.

Did I read this right Jim, yer going to shoot the next skirmish naked?? like the Ottawas??

[Maillemaker]

Did I read this right Jim, yer going to shoot the next skirmish naked?? like the Ottawas??

Only the Confederate teams will have to do this... ;)

Steve

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Where are they going to where their ID cards?http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif (javascript:void(0))

[Maillemaker]

Where are they going to where their ID cards?http://www.n-ssa.net/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_mrgreen.gif (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:void%280%29)

I figure it's like those credit card swiping machines. :)

Steve

[Ron/The Old Reb]

That could hurt.:eek:

[jonk]

Just to report back...

I made up some rounds for the Potsdam where I did as I suggested. Seated the ball in the tube, poured a 9mm shell full of melted lube in on top (Mobil 1 synthetic and beeswax).

Now, the GOOD part is, no stuck balls, it all loaded great- and the little cap of lube on top of the ball made it self center with no chance of the sprue getting wedged sideways. The bad part? Too much lube. Big globs of it stuck to the ramrod, inside the barrel (presumably from the final shot as I'd have to think it blows out with each shot) etc. Worth revisiting with perhaps a .32 ACP case full of lube instead.

Again, this was done with the sprue down, lube on top of the ball.

Average shoot, accuracy wise. I tend to think it was a tad much in terms of the amount of lube, and it might have been clinging to the ball and throwing off accuracy. But then our whole team had a miserable sb shoot last weekend. We were doing fine until 50 yards... never seen us NOT finish 50 yards and this time we didn't hit a single tile!

[kowdok]

OK eggman, this is just for you. I finally shot SB naked ( no Lube ) at Mcneills last weekend. Shot the best I have ever shot with the naked balls. No misses on the pig. bd., 3 for 4 on the 3" wooden blocks, and 3 for 4 at 50 yds. ( 6" tiles ). We should have won 2nd place B team, but the A team shot so bad they switched us on the board and no one ended up with medals. Y'all might think I'm crazy, but I'm sold, no more lube for me.

[Eggman]

Did you at first alert the womenfolk to avert their eyes???

[Maillemaker]

OK eggman, this is just for you. I finally shot SB naked ( no Lube ) at Mcneills last weekend. Shot the best I have ever shot with the naked balls. No misses on the pig. bd., 3 for 4 on the 3" wooden blocks, and 3 for 4 at 50 yds. ( 6" tiles ). We should have won 2nd place B team, but the A team shot so bad they switched us on the board and no one ended up with medals. Y'all might think I'm crazy, but I'm sold, no more lube for me.

Interesting. Did you change your powder load at all?

Did you rough up the balls or shoot them as-cast?

Steve

[kowdok]

Maille, I used the same load as I always use, 45gns of Swiss. Point of aim did not change, just shot a much tighter group. I shoot a pretty small ball for the bore size, .675 ball in a .687 Hoyt reline. The balls generally fall all the way down the barrel even after 5 or 6 shots. I figured since I was going to try this, I should rough the balls up a little more than usual so I used the rough side of the farrier rasps instead of the usual less rough side. My opinion is that the roughing of the balls is the key, the projections that are produced center the ball in the barrel so that the powder blast hits the ball evenly all around. I also think that if you use a ball too big and you have to beat it down the barrel, then you defeat the purpose of rasping by beating down the projections you have produced. This seems to work for me, all I suggest is that you try it to see what results you get.

[Greg Ogdan 110th OVI]

Kowdok is orrect. I shoot a large ball for the bore, .680 in a .687, so I shoot same powder charge, but I de-sprue and just shake in a coffee can.

Greg

[Eggman]

I still use the light coat of Alox cause that's what the gurus Lieneke and Harrison use. Don't know if it does any good but doubt if it does any harm. One hole groups at 25. Do have to wrestle the ball down a bit starting around round five.

[Maillemaker]

Maille, I used the same load as I always use, 45gns of Swiss. Point of aim did not change, just shot a much tighter group. I shoot a pretty small ball for the bore size, .675 ball in a .687 Hoyt reline. The balls generally fall all the way down the barrel even after 5 or 6 shots. I figured since I was going to try this, I should rough the balls up a little more than usual so I used the rough side of the farrier rasps instead of the usual less rough side. My opinion is that the roughing of the balls is the key, the projections that are produced center the ball in the barrel so that the powder blast hits the ball evenly all around. I also think that if you use a ball too big and you have to beat it down the barrel, then you defeat the purpose of rasping by beating down the projections you have produced. This seems to work for me, all I suggest is that you try it to see what results you get.

Thanks. It would be nice to not have to play with Alox.

I wonder if the rasping has aerodynamic benefits like dimples on a golf ball.

Steve

[John Holland]

Kowdoc - You said the ball size is .675, is that the diameter as cast or after rasping? I ask because rasping/roughing increases the diameter. The ball diameter for my Potsdam when rasped will increase from .712 to .718.

[Eggman]

Thanks. It would be nice to not have to play with Alox.

I wonder if the rasping has aerodynamic benefits like dimples on a golf ball.

Steve

Absolutely - I'm convinced. And the elimination of the patch and sprue allow the ball to rotate in the barrel subsequently providing rotation in flight thus eliminating the Hoyt Wilhelm effect.

[Maillemaker]

Well, I'm going to give it a shot then. I'll use my Mike Rouche sprue cutter and then my new file fixture (http://4thla.weebly.com/ball-rolling-fixture.html) and shoot rough and naked.

Steve

[Rich Foster]

Steve nice ball rolling jig. I am going to make me one. I use a very light pressure when using files. already figured out how to modify to keep equal pressure to make sure balls come out the same diameter after filing. I roll mine all so lightly and lube with alox. It can only be good for holding the alox. Really think if you have the right ball dia. rolling with files is not needed. Naked might be the way to go. Rich Foster

[FirinFlatTop]

Nice jig, but ya really don't need one, I have a u tube vid showing you how to do it. I also pan lube with alox, small cast iron frying pan, put about 20 balls in and put a small drop of alox on each one and roll in pan. If you rasp the balls light enough they don't enlarge as much, only about a thousand. I also think at 25 you could shoot naked balls, but at 50 I think Knarreling them up helps. I shot my Potsdam without rasping them, it shot like gang busters. https://youtu.be/oMS5mMfJIjI





(http://youtu.be/oMS5mMfJIjI)

[kowdok]

John, the size of my mold ( Pedersoli ) is .675. I haven't measured after rasping, but I'm sure they increase at least that much. I love that mold because it leaves no sprue at all. Marty shoots an Armisport .690 and these balls are too small for that gun. I use a lyman .678 mold for her gun and have to remove sprues. I do dimple all the balls in a metal coffee can before I rasp them. I mostly dislike Alox because no matter how long I let it dry, it always leaves a ring inside my tubes that grabs some of my powder and therefore I don't think I'm getting a consistent amt. of powder with every shot. HP Gregory, I believe, is the originator, at least in our org., of the rasping with farrier files. He gave me a piece of a cutoff .69 cal barrel to use as a guide for the balls. It's amazing the way the rasped balls will sit in the center of the barrel.

[Maillemaker]

I mostly dislike Alox because no matter how long I let it dry, it always leaves a ring inside my tubes that grabs some of my powder and therefore I don't think I'm getting a consistent amt. of powder with every shot.

One of our teammates solves this problem by putting each ball on a small square of wax paper before stuffing it in the tube. Of course, you then have to peel the ball off the paper prior to loading.

I'm casting with a Lyman .678 mold. I just measured my balls after rasping they are measuring .685 or so. Bore is .690 Armisport.

Steve

[Chris Sweeney]

I tried Jim's naked ball load and I guess it's a case of YMMV. Trying to load the 5th shot, I ended up with the ramrod stuck fast in the bore! The only change I made was to use Olde Eynesford instead of GOEX cuz it's spoda be cleaner . . . not so much! On the other hand, the hard, dry fouling was a much evener granulation :)

[Eggman]

I'm casting with a Lyman .678 mold. I just measured my balls after rasping they are measuring .685 or so. Bore is .690 Armisport.

Steve

Steve - is there resistance all the way to the bottom when you load that first round, or does it just fall down there. The ball should resist all the way meaning you should get a .69 diameter ball or greater when rasped. To get greater size rasp harder.

A caveat here is you're having great success so my statement is likely a non sequitur to what you just said. Folks try out what we suggest though and my comment is for them.

[Maillemaker]

Steve - is there resistance all the way to the bottom when you load that first round, or does it just fall down there. The ball should resist all the way meaning you should get a .69 diameter ball or greater when rasped. To get greater size rasp harder.

A caveat here is you're having great success so my statement is likely a non sequitur to what you just said. Folks try out what we suggest though and my comment is for them.

I have not had a chance to try shooting the naked, rough balls. I did drop one down the barrel and it kind of slowly "swooshed" down the clean barrel.

With Alox balls it actually makes an air-piston effect with the ramrod.

I've done something to my hip and it is extremely painful to stand or sit. Once I get standing or sitting it's OK. Been going on for about 8 weeks now. Start physical therapy tonight but I'm not holding much hope for that. I'm thinking they will have to do an MRI to find out what is going on. X-ray found nothing. If it is like this for the August skirmish I won't be able to shoot. I'm very concerned right now because I don't know what is wrong. I don't know if this is an injury that is going to heal or if this is some new, permanent, chronic condition. If it is, my life is seriously changing. I probably won't be able to skirmish anymore.

Steve

[Eggman]

Get well and think positive buddy!

[H.Liniger]

To Steve, This is off topic but I have to comment about your ailment. I had my hip replaced last October. I was walking the day of surgery and walking up steps the next day. I walked with a walker for two days and a cane for five. It is not the end of skirmishing. I am going strong now as if nothing was done. IT IS NOT THE END OF SKIRMISHING. If you have to go that way you will do fine. I can't kick field goals anymore but I can still hang targets and pull the trigger. Good luck Harry Liniger DSR

[Muley Gil]

Steve, I'm praying that nothing is seriously wrong with your hip.

[Maillemaker]

So at the 3rd Georgia's skirmish this past weekend I tried an experiment.

I shot my smoothbore balls in individuals with only the following preparation: Sprue cut down using the Mike Rouch sprue cutter, and then rolled the balls between two files using my ball rolling fixture ( http://4thla.weebly.com/ball-rolling-fixture.html ). The only trick with them is they are so rough that if you push them into the rubber tubes too deeply they are a real bear to get them back out again. So I push them only until they stick so that you can pinch the tube and easily squirt them out as needed.

I used these non-lubed balls (.678 Lyman mold cast with wheel weight lead) in my Armisport 1842. With this I was able to pick up 1st place 50 yard Smoothbore and 1st place Smoothbore Aggregate. I got nothing for 25 yard Smoothbore though. In team shooting our Smoothbore team took 2nd place.

For team shooting I had taken smooth balls that had been smoothed by tumbling and dipped twice in Alox. The problem I had is that shoving the balls into and removing them from the tubes shears/peels off the Alox off of the smooth balls.

However, I witnessed an event on Saturday which now will dictate my ammo preparation details.

Our teammate, Rod Harbin, shot 18 shots with no misses in the Smoothbore team competition. This includes 4 hits at 50 yards. This beats his last feat some years ago of 15 shots with no misses. Rod uses the same ammo prep routine that our other great Smoothbore shooter, Chuck Garvey, uses:

1) True up the ball - some use sprue cutter some roll between marble plates.
2) Roll ball between files to roughen them up.
3) Coat the balls in Lee Alox with 3 separate treatments, allowing 1 day drying time between each application.

It's hard to argue with success, so that's how I will be making up my Smoothbore ammo from now on.

Steve

[gjwarren]

So for awhile, I was going the alox routine for sb. Still works fine for my 42. My 16 and Potsdam though have a definite preference for the whole 'thrice dipped in musket lube' routine. Though actually it doesn't seem to matter if 1, 2, or 3 times dipped.

I played around with sprue up, sprue down, and both sides lubed in each configuration. Personally what seems to work for me is sprue down, lube the top of the ball.

So my question is this. With the Potsdam, alox gunks up within 5 shots, requiring a hammer to seat the ball. But the tubes I have from S and S seem to be more suited to a .75; the ball has to be truly pushed into the tube. You can't seat halfway into the mouth and then dip, or the ball falls out.

1. Has anyone experienced this? If so, what did you do?
2. Anyone see any reason why I couldn't seat the ball in the tube and then pour a 9mm shell full of lube into it to harden on top?
Simply rough up the balls and coat in axle grease. Loads easy and does not foul. Just a thin coat works!

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[R. McAuley 3014V]

So at the 3rd Georgia's skirmish this past weekend I tried an experiment.

...The only trick with them is they are so rough that if you push them into the rubber tubes too deeply they are a real bear to get them back out again. So I push them only until they stick so that you can pinch the tube and easily squirt them out as needed.


Yes, even with thrice coated with Alox, the balls don't want to come out of the black soft tubes, no matter how much you may squeeze! Of course, with my 24" C.S. Richmond Mounted Cavalry Musketoon, naked balls are the way to go, and I have been able to keep all my shots at 25 yards in the black. But the recoil is h-o-r-r-e-n-d-o-u-s! Of late, I have begun to experiment with some old alchemy recipes for alloying lead to produce a lighter weight ball, and thus have reduced the weight of my .678 balls from 470 grains down to 400, permitting me to reduce the powder charge from 70 to 40 grains, making my shoulder feel much better. It's also producing a tighter group, and we shall see how that works out at the National.

[Maillemaker]

Well, yesterday the whole family spent the day at the range, and in between coaching the kids I did some experiments with balls. I tried rough only with no Alox, rough + alox, and smooth + alox. Shot at 25 yards off of a bench rest with 70 grains 3F Goex, which is what I had found made the best groups when I first did a load workup.

The most surprising thing was that I was not able to get as good a group from any of the ball as I did during load workup. When I worked up a load for this thing 70 grains at 25 yards would basically blow a 2-3" hole in the paper off a bench. But with 10 shots the group yesterday for all bullet types was about a 6" spread. We got home late and I was tired and have not yet scanned the targets but I will.

One thing I wonder is if temperature makes a difference. When I did the load workup it was February and much cooler than yesterday when it was 90F or so. The barrel gets so hot that you cannot touch it.

I will have to examine the targets to be sure, but I do not recall any real difference in performance for the 3 types of balls. However, the rough naked balls became noticeably crunchier to load after 4-5 shots. So I think the Alox lube does help with the fouling somewhat. The rough balls definitely keep their Alox skin better than smooth balls dipped in Alox. The smooth balls peel their Alox when pushed into and pulled out of their tubes. The rough balls do not shed their Alox. This fits with what I was told that the roughing provides a "tooth" for the Alox to grip to.

I was loading sprue up - when I could find the sprue. About 25% of the time it is no longer visible after cutting down with the Mike Rouche cutter and then file-rolling. The rest of the time it is so obscure that it probably doesn't matter.

As for my hip, I think it is nearly healed all by itself. About 3 weeks ago it was so bad I went to the ER for pain medication. They got me back in to my orthopedic guy and they gave me some more pain meds. Got an MRI a couple of days later. Unfortunately neither the first doctor nor his partner seemed very confident at the results. It was "well, maybe it is a torn labrum". But the surgery for that puts you on crutches for 2 weeks and 6 weeks of recovery. But the second doctor put me on a new medicine called Arthrotec and I don't know if it was coincidence or not but it made a huge, huge difference! I quit taking the Arthrotec about 2 weeks ago and found that the pain was still mostly gone without any medication now. There is still a slight twinge when getting up and down but nothing NOTHING like it was before. I mean I would not even consider going to a doctor for the discomfort I have now.

So all and all I'm pretty much on the mend, I think, and I have re-affirmed my view that unless you are bleeding or have a physical deformity that indicates a broken bone or something there is little that modern medicine can do for you until you spend a lot of money to find out, and even then it's not a sure thing. I think this little adventure has cost me about $1500.

Steve

[Fire18WFD]

I have these for sale. Fast and easy way to dimple round balls.

[gjwarren]

Well, yesterday the whole family spent the day at the range, and in between coaching the kids I did some experiments with balls. I tried rough only with no Alox, rough + alox, and smooth + alox. Shot at 25 yards off of a bench rest with 70 grains 3F Goex, which is what I had found made the best groups when I first did a load workup.

The most surprising thing was that I was not able to get as good a group from any of the ball as I did during load workup. When I worked up a load for this thing 70 grains at 25 yards would basically blow a 2-3" hole in the paper off a bench. But with 10 shots the group yesterday for all bullet types was about a 6" spread. We got home late and I was tired and have not yet scanned the targets but I will.

One thing I wonder is if temperature makes a difference. When I did the load workup it was February and much cooler than yesterday when it was 90F or so. The barrel gets so hot that you cannot touch it.

I will have to examine the targets to be sure, but I do not recall any real difference in performance for the 3 types of balls. However, the rough naked balls became noticeably crunchier to load after 4-5 shots. So I think the Alox lube does help with the fouling somewhat. The rough balls definitely keep their Alox skin better than smooth balls dipped in Alox. The smooth balls peel their Alox when pushed into and pulled out of their tubes. The rough balls do not shed their Alox. This fits with what I was told that the roughing provides a "tooth" for the Alox to grip to.

I was loading sprue up - when I could find the sprue. About 25% of the time it is no longer visible after cutting down with the Mike Rouche cutter and then file-rolling. The rest of the time it is so obscure that it probably doesn't matter.

As for my hip, I think it is nearly healed all by itself. About 3 weeks ago it was so bad I went to the ER for pain medication. They got me back in to my orthopedic guy and they gave me some more pain meds. Got an MRI a couple of days later. Unfortunately neither the first doctor nor his partner seemed very confident at the results. It was "well, maybe it is a torn labrum". But the surgery for that puts you on crutches for 2 weeks and 6 weeks of recovery. But the second doctor put me on a new medicine called Arthrotec and I don't know if it was coincidence or not but it made a huge, huge difference! I quit taking the Arthrotec about 2 weeks ago and found that the pain was still mostly gone without any medication now. There is still a slight twinge when getting up and down but nothing NOTHING like it was before. I mean I would not even consider going to a doctor for the discomfort I have now.

So all and all I'm pretty much on the mend, I think, and I have re-affirmed my view that unless you are bleeding or have a physical deformity that indicates a broken bone or something there is little that modern medicine can do for you until you spend a lot of money to find out, and even then it's not a sure thing. I think this little adventure has cost me about $1500.

Steve
I use axel grease on desprued , farrier file roughed roundball. I just dip it in the grease & wipe thin with my fingers. Shoots perfectly, loads very easily, fouls very little even after 12 rounds, easy & cheap. Been using 1 pint tub of grease for over 10 years.

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