Sharps 50-70 reproduction

[SharpsCarb]

Hi to all! I'm new here and quite new to black powder.

I have a like-new Garrett Arms Sharps Carbine 50-70 (black powder cartridge) that I bought new in the early '80's. Shot it once (15 rounds?) then put it away always thinking I was going to pull it back out to shoot. Here it is 30 yrs later and I'm just getting around to shooting it again. The carbine came with a label that said 1871 cartridge conversion...? I had always thought it was an 1863 conversion?

Was wondering what the history of Garrett Arms is and about the carbine I own. How many were made? What was the considered quality of Garrett Arms? Can someone direct me to some information or post some of their knowledge about the carbine that I own? I have tried doing many searches and pretty much turned up close to nothing... I posted in another forum that just said it was not much value and to load it up and shoot it. Nothing said after that one response. I'm just looking for more info about what I own and the history of Garrett Arms Sharps 50-70 cartridge rifles. Was Garrett Arms quality considered to be inferior to the other brands? How long did they make reproductions?

Hope this is the proper place to post this. If not, sorry. Pls move it to a proper spot.

Thanks for any info in advance.

3267

3266

3265

[gemmer]

The .50-70 carbine is a conversion of the 1859/63 percussion. The Garrett is a much more accurate representation than other reproductions in that it retains the provision for the percussion primer feed as did the originals. I never owned a Garrett but it looks very close to my converted '63. My understanding is Garretts that have a cartouche behind the saddle ring bar, as yours does, are very good quality and I know that
percussion versions for sale are usually grabbed up very quickly. Does yours have a 3 groove or 6 groove barrel?

Duane

[ian45662]

Did IAB buy the tooling from garret or something like that?

[John Holland]

Your Garrett reproduction of the .50-70 conversion is quite desirable, and collectible in its own right. Yes, there are people who collect reproduction arms! Your example is one of the line of Sharps reproduction arms made under contract for Frank Garrett by Palmetto Arms in Italy. These have been out of production for probably some 30 years. As noted, when the percussion models come up for sale on this bulletin board they sell fairly quickly because they are still popular arms for our type of competitive shooting. The percussion model reproductions are the ONLY ones ever made that have the complete, and fully functioning, Lawrence pellet priming system. I do not have any production numbers, but I can tell you the .50-70 Carbine, as a conversion type, was done very limited numbers. In my opinion, you have a real "Gem", and like any breech loading cartridge arm you can shoot it without doing any damage to it, as long as you do your part in keeping it properly cared for. BUT, if it is unfired, I'd keep it that way. Who knows, it may be the only one left in unfired condition!

JDH

[SharpsCarb]

The .50-70 carbine is a conversion of the 1859/63 percussion. The Garrett is a much more accurate representation than other reproductions in that it retains the provision for the percussion primer feed as did the originals. I never owned a Garrett but it looks very close to my converted '63. My understanding is Garretts that have a cartouche behind the saddle ring bar, as yours does, are very good quality and I know that
percussion versions for sale are usually grabbed up very quickly. Does yours have a 3 groove or 6 groove barrel?

Duane

I have a 6 groove barrel. Is there any significance to that? Also the serial # is 65. My closest estimate is that I bought it in '83 or '84. I had read where one person said only 100 of them were made. Mine is not a percussion model but hoping the cartridge model has the same level of quality as the percussion.

Thanks for your reply.

edit: It's a 3 groove barrel... Just checked.

[SharpsCarb]

Your Garrett reproduction of the .50-70 conversion is quite desirable, and collectible in its own right. Yes, there are people who collect reproduction arms! Your example is one of the line of Sharps reproduction arms made under contract for Frank Garrett by Palmetto Arms in Italy. These have been out of production for probably some 30 years. As noted, when the percussion models come up for sale on this bulletin board they sell fairly quickly because they are still popular arms for our type of competitive shooting. The percussion model reproductions are the ONLY ones ever made that have the complete, and fully functioning, Lawrence pellet priming system. I do not have any production numbers, but I can tell you the .50-70 Carbine, as a conversion type, was done very limited numbers. In my opinion, you have a real "Gem", and like any breech loading cartridge arm you can shoot it without doing any damage to it, as long as you do your part in keeping it properly cared for. BUT, if it is unfired, I'd keep it that way. Who knows, it may be the only one left in unfired condition!

JDH

Thanks John. I've read things online about how crappy Garrett Arms rifles were (from someone on bpcr.com)... And how good some of them were. Looking at mine, the quality looks pretty good, but I don't really know what the quality is like on other Shiloh, Pedersoli, Uberti rifles in order to compare. Someone said that Pedersoli bought out Garrett Arms' tooling?

My rifle has been fired but there's probably only 15 rounds through it at the most. Definitely does not look fired. I just remember it being so much fun to shoot. I'm curious to know what its ballpark value might be before I take it to the range. Is there a website where I might be able to find this out? Someone here on the forum? I have had a tough time finding info on my rifle. Thanks for posting! Much appreciated...

[John Holland]

SharpsCarb - In my opinion only, a minimum value of $1200.

[P.Altland]

One must be careful relating to opinions of quality of Garretts. Actual Garrett approved arms were of very high quality. Several years ago at the Antique Arms Show in Timonium MD I asked Frank Garrett to look at a pristine, unfired Garrett that just didn't look right as it looked nothing like mine. He kindly obliged and told me that there were Garrett marked arms that were made after he terminated his contract and weren't approved by him. This particular percussion carbine had a 5 digit serial number and 3-groove barrel with shallow rifling and a rounded crown. Mine is a 6 right and there were some left hand twist as well. Both with 20 thousandths rifling.


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[SharpsCarb]

SharpsCarb - In my opinion only, a minimum value of $1200.

Much appreciated... I think I paid $150... or $300? I bought 2 of them at the same time. One for a friend.

I was just going through my stuff and found the old Garrett Arms brochure for the percussion and cartridge models as well as parts price list and instructions warnings. They were typed on Garrett Arms stationery. Do you think anyone would be interested in a copy if I scanned them? They're from the early '80s.

[SharpsCarb]

One must be careful relating to opinions of quality of Garretts. Actual Garrett approved arms were of very high quality. Several years ago at the Antique Arms Show in Timonium MD I asked Frank Garrett to look at a pristine, unfired Garrett that just didn't look right as it looked nothing like mine. He kindly obliged and told me that there were Garrett marked arms that were made after he terminated his contract and weren't approved by him. This particular percussion carbine had a 5 digit serial number and 3-groove barrel with shallow rifling and a rounded crown. Mine is a 6 right and there were some left hand twist as well. Both with 20 thousandths rifling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know I bought mine in the early 80s. I'm wondering if his cartouche was ever used without his acknowledgement after he left the company? Did the unfired Garrett have his cartouche?

[Ron/The Old Reb]

You only live once. I would shoot it and enjoy it. After your dead what do you care what it's worth. Let the next guy who owns it worry about it.

[Curt]

Hallo!

"The carbine came with a label that said 1871 cartridge conversion...? I had always thought it was an 1863 conversion?"

After the Civil War, the government had about 50,000 Sharps of all kinds on hand 'left.' When the March 1865 breechloading trial board bogged down in red tape after getting started in March of 1866...

Dyer wrote to Sharps president Palmer in January 1867 asking for one sample altered percussion carbine and a small supply of cartridges. In May, one such was sent along with a proposal to alter all the carbines and rifles the government had. In June, the Chief of Ordnance wrote to the new Sharps president Ames asking what he had in mind. When Ames got the letter, he thought that a contract was right behind, and ordered produciton. When Ordnance found out, they sent another letter saying there had been no approval yet. The Secretary of War approved the deal late in October.

After some "back and forth," a bore size and other details were hammered out and the first conversions arrived in February 1868. These are the 'Model 1867' followed by the 'M168" with relined chambers and nine new parts for the '67 but only eight for the '68.

Sharps would drop the Lawrence Primer feature, heavy hammer, and other size and weight stream-lining changes with their redesigned Model 1869 in April of 1869.

Sharps would then look at converting rifles from government inventory, and early in 1871 the remaining stocks of Sharps percussion guns were sold off to Schuyler, Hartley, & Graham to supplement a batch they had bought 1870 directly from Sharps. S, H, & G then quickly sold the entire lot to France. After the Franco-Prussian War, many came back purchased by Boker of New York. Which going full cirlce once again interested Sharps into converting percussion guns for sale on the open market as they were done with the Government contract.

It is true one learns something New everyday. I did not know "Garrett' had made a cartridge conversion Sharps. Hmmm. I would have really liked a Garrett version of a Sharps rifle conversion for "buffalo hunter" stuff had there been one.

:) :)

Curt

[SharpsCarb]

You only live once. I would shoot it and enjoy it. After your dead what do you care what it's worth. Let the next guy who owns it worry about it.

In the end, that's probably what will happen... Just wanted to get more info before I went off and did something I might regret.

[SharpsCarb]

Hallo!

"The carbine came with a label that said 1871 cartridge conversion...? I had always thought it was an 1863 conversion?"

After the Civil War, the government had about 50,000 Sharps of all kinds on hand 'left.' When the March 1865 breechloading trial board bogged down in red tape after getting started in March of 1866...

Dyer wrote to Sharps president Palmer in January 1867 asking for one sample altered percussion carbine and a small supply of cartridges. In May, one such was sent along with a proposal to alter all the carbines and rifles the government had. In June, the Chief of Ordnance wrote to the new Sharps president Ames asking what he had in mind. When Ames got the letter, he thought that a contract was right behind, and ordered produciton. When Ordnance found out, they sent another letter saying there had been no approval yet. The Secretary of War approved the deal late in October.

After some "back and forth," a bore size and other details were hammered out and the first conversions arrived in February 1868. These are the 'Model 1867' followed by the 'M168" with relined chambers and nine new parts for the '67 but only eight for the '68.

Sharps would drop the Lawrence Primer feature, heavy hammer, and other size and weight stream-lining changes with their redesigned Model 1869 in April of 1869.

Sharps would then look at converting rifles from government inventory, and early in 1871 the remaining stocks of Sharps percussion guns were sold off to Schuyler, Hartley, & Graham to supplement a batch they had bought 1870 directly from Sharps. S, H, & G then quickly sold the entire lot to France. After the Franco-Prussian War, many came back purchased by Boker of New York. Which going full cirlce once again interested Sharps into converting percussion guns for sale on the open market as they were done with the Government contract.

It is true one learns something New everyday. I did not know "Garrett' had made a cartridge conversion Sharps. Hmmm. I would have really liked a Garrett version of a Sharps rifle conversion for "buffalo hunter" stuff had there been one.

:) :)

Curt

Awesome info! Thanks Curt! You seem to know quite a bit about the Sharps history. Nice of you to pass it on.

[Curt]

Hallo!

I used to be a Sharpsaholic. :) :)

The NM1859 Carbine and NM1859 Rifle (and Berdan Contract NM1859), followed by the M1874 civilian rifles.. were my favorites.

Curt

[SharpsCarb]

Hallo!

I used to be a Sharpsaholic. :) :)



Used to be? I think once a Sharpsaholic, always a Sharpsaholic!

My good friend, Rod Guthrie, was a Sharpsaholic too, owning a 45-120 that we would shoot at 300 yds. He got me to buy this Sharps Carbine back when I knew nothing about rifles... It was a smart buy. He knew what I was getting. He also helped me get my first pistol when I knew nothing of pistols... He said come with me, we're gonna look at a pistol for you. I looked at it and didn't know the first thing about it. He said "Buy it, it's a good deal". So I bought it. It was a 1963 Colt Python absolutely mint condition. I still have it. Rod has passed on due to ALS but I always think of him when it comes to shootin' and Sharps.

[Boge]

I bought a Garrett 50-70 conversion carbine on closeout from the Shotgun News for $275 in the Spring of '83. Later that year, like a dummy, I sold it. I tried for years to buy that carbine back from him but he refused. Fast forward many years and I bought one in the unauthentic 45-70 chambering which I had reamed out, relined & chambered to 50-70, not unlike many of the originals. As luck would have it, shortly thereafter a fella on another forum had a mint Garrett conversion carbine in 50-70 and I bought it for a good price. So, now I have two. ;)

I was told that approx. 200 or less were made. I have no idea how true that is, but they are indeed rare. Probably the only Garrett that is rarer is the percussion Berdan rifle model. I've seen photos of one.