Sighted Smoothbores should be in their own class.

[MR. GADGET]

We should break out sighted smoothbore into its own class.
There is no reason that we should not do this.

The sighted in most cases are built up guns. People are building them up to shoot at the cost of changing a gun that has a lot of history just to get a better score.

#1 rule in smoothbore is you can not do anything to the sights, yet when the build them up they add a new barrel and rear sughts in a lot of cases.

Just me but if we have a class type gun but yet two complete different types, sighted and not then it is time to change the system.

[jonk]

While there is some merit in what you say a few thoughts.

First, if I recall correctly, it's no longer permitted to modify 1816 non sighted guns, so the BOD has that under control.
Second, while agreeing with the spirit of what you say, that path leads to fractionation and madness. Suddenly flintlock SBs would be in their own category. Suddenly carbines and muskets with fixed sights (I.e. Kentucky style) would be on their own. Misssissippis with Benton sights would be on their own. Where does it end?

I'm not trying to be contrarian, because as I say part of me agrees with you. I'm just saying that unless we are willing to consider other similar group changes, it could set a certain precedent. And, this subject has been discussed many times.

[MR. GADGET]

While there is some merit in what you say a few thoughts.

First, if I recall correctly, it's no longer permitted to modify 1816 non sighted guns, so the BOD has that under control.
Second, while agreeing with the spirit of what you say, that path leads to fractionation and madness. Suddenly flintlock.

That would be wrong from what I remember.
it did not pass.

Too much fight from those that are building them.

[MR. GADGET]

And for the naysayers. ..

There is a difference in sighted and unsighted SB.

My test was to shoot a normal repop have a non SB shooter shoot it.
Then glue a rear sight on the gun with superglue and both shot.

The ones with the sight were shot for group only as it was not tuned and zeroed.
The groups using a rear sight were a lot tighter and also made a big difference to someone that does not normal shoot a Non sighted gun.
You could overlay the target unsighted with the sighted and big difference.
Same load, same day, same gun, same 2 shooters.

Rear sight does make a difference. hard to fight the facts.

[John Holland]

As of the August 2013 Board of Directors Meeting it was agreed that the N-SSA will no longer accept or condone the wholesale destruction of original cone-in-barrel muskets to be made into sighted H&P type muskets.

John Holland
Chairman
Small Arms Committee
N-SSA

[MR. GADGET]

10-4 that is good to hear.

I thought that was.voted down, I know there was a big stink about it and the write up in the S-line.

Thanks

[Mike McDaniel]

I think the big question is whether or not to permit sighted smoothbores at all.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Harry,

Here's what I think, and first off - thanks for asking:

There's far too much effort which has been expended on adding more classifications/arms. It reminds me of what I see in public schools where additional classes/courses/programs/sports teams have to be implemented so ALL of the students can have a warm and fuzzy sense of "inclusiveness"...

Some folks opt to shoot muzzle stuffer carbines for individuals, as they feel that they're much more "competitive" in that venue, vice those carbines which break in half. As such, for individuals they'll use a Richmond, but when it's time to "run sprints" for team matches, they use the best carbine ever fielded - a Maynard (original Model 1)...

Should we then offer a separate categories for breach and muzzle loading carbines?

We've already added more to an already crammed program with muzzle loading pistols (eye roll)... Now you're suggesting another DSCA, and individual event/category???

I hate to come off like a despicable "boo bird", but I don't see the benefit from separating apples from apples.

I've used both rear sighted and non-rear sighted SB's. My Cadet just didn't deliver the goods for me, so I sold her to a very good friend who IS now routinely winning Individual SB medals. I'm jealous, but also VERY happy to see him, and my former piece, doing so well on the firing line. Yes, I've opted for an original H&P for various reasons, but my former friend and his Cadet is now a very serious contender on the line.

Using your metaphor, if folks want to bring a knife to a gun fight, it' a free country - let 'em. But I've served with folks who were VERY skilled with a blade and watched first hand how they could take it to anyone, even a gun slinger (I'm glad they were on our side).

Let's stay away from "slippery slopes" and get back to sticking with musket, carbine, revolver. Doing that will free up a ton of time, and who knows folks may use the time to socialize and re-invigorate the "party" atmosphere which used to be a real enticement to our sport.

Instead - let us focus on recruiting young members. THAT is much more important than another skirmish medal opportunity.

That's my two cents. Thanks again!





Hey another convert! I have written on this thread on more than one occasion questioning the fairness of the Sighted smoothbore vs non sighted smoothbore. There are arguments to support both cases. In another thread there is a skirmisher pursuing the possibility for Pedersoli to put a rear sight on a perfectly good 1816 repro and make another H and P conversion. Why would anyone want to put a rear sight on a perfectly good, repro non sighted smoothbore? According to many skirmishers, all you have to do is practice more. Many skirmishers feel that if I DO MY PART, and the non sighted smoothbore will win medals.

As a compromise, keep the sighted and non sighted together for team competition, and the teams will find there level of proficiency in the different classes based on the skill of the skirmisher.

I am hoping that the Association takes steps to separate the non sighted from the sighted smoothbore for Individual medal competition.

Take a moment and look at the scores from the Spring Nationals in 25 and 50 yard smoothbore medal competition. What do you think?

I have taken a knife to a gun fight, and I did not do too well.

True Blue and Diamond Hard,
Harry Gaul
3626v
3rd US

[Eggman]

Rear sight does make a difference. hard to fight the facts.

Really "result" might be better than "facts."Good test. But good scientific data needs repeatability. Do it again - different shooters. Then again. Some other facts:

I recall my experience with Lani Harrison at Eva a couple years back. Twenty something (I counted 23) consecutive hits with an original rearsightless '42. He rakes in the individuals also. This is recapped in the Jan "Muzzle Blasts."

So I bought a rearsightless Armi Sport '42. After getting acclimized at a few regionals went 12 for 17 (71%) at the last national including 8 fer 8 the first two events. Get your load configuration and sight picture right. I'm not known for my shooting prowess but the gun provides all the performance I could ask for.

Leave things as they are. It is unsurpassedly joyful to outshoot the rearsighted person next to you.

[MR. GADGET]

Keep drinking the coolaid...

Sighted and unsighted guns are different.
I can shoot both good and does not come down to that.

comes down to new shooters being able to shoot sighted and pick up on it easier.
It also comes down to the advantage of having sights.

If not they would not have the rule in there stopping us from doing anything with sights.

Mine does not have a sight and I will get 6 or more targets a relay when Im on.

And for those thwt say do away with SB. Do it, see what that gets you.
I would bet you will see the membership drop fast... Faster then it does now do to the old birds being afraid to change.

[MR. GADGET]

Also because we want to cut the extra time we are wasting on SB and others, why not just go back to facts....

How many centerfire guns were in the Civil War?
Whats the number of center fire guns being used in nationals... ?

why we get so many tight underwear people when we talk sighted and unsighed Yet we let people convert guns to centerfire, and let you change the sights all you want...
But don't touch your smoothbore sights.....

[MR. GADGET]

Really "result" might be better than "facts."Good test. But good scientific data needs repeatability. Do it again - different shooters. Then again. Some other facts:

.
True results would be better then we find the facts..

All they need to do is break it up for one national and see what it does for sighted vs not.

Or do this, nothing other then when you order the targets pick sighted or not.
One could get a black X and the other a blue X.
Then behind your number that could list S or NS.

Let the normal top 40 listed on the board show the ranking of the different guns. No extra medals no time, no problems...

[Maillemaker]

Take a moment and look at the scores from the Spring Nationals in 25 and 50 yard smoothbore medal competition. What do you think?

I looked at the individual smoothbore scores, and I did not see any mention of the kind of firearm being used. Am I missing it?

Steve

[MR. GADGET]

I looked at the individual smoothbore scores, and I did not see any mention of the kind of firearm being used. Am I missing it?

Steve

They are not.

I was in the stat house for the spring. Not a single target saud anything on it other then the norm.

You can look and talk all you want. They shoukd be marked on the target just for record.
That way they know what is winning and the numbers of sight and not.

[Curt]

Hallo!

Rotate the tang screw so that the tang "just happens" to line up with the front sight and serves as a fixed rear sight.
If need be, bend the barrel to compensate for a too high or too low sight picture's POI.

Just a-funnin,' just a-funnin.'

(Not relevant to the discussion, or the N-SSA, but historically a number of 18th century trade guns (SB) exist that have a chisel cut groove in the tang to serve as a rear sight alone or in conjunction with the slot of the tang screw. Some people thought it worth while to do. )

:)

Curt

[Eggman]

Hallo!

Rotate the tang screw so that the tang "just happens" to line up with the front sight and serves as a fixed rear sight.
If need be, bend the barrel to compensate for a too high or too low sight picture's POI.

Curt

Curt - you are tarred and feathered - then burned at the stake in the NMLRA for this.

[jonk]

A further thought: if you feel that you are at a disadvantage using a non-sighted smoothbore, well- go out and get one. Simple as that.

[Maillemaker]

A further thought: if you feel that you are at a disadvantage using a non-sighted smoothbore, well- go out and get one. Simple as that.

Perhaps not so simple as that, though. They are now rarer than hens teeth on my usual for-sale haunts. Even a Google search turned up only one that appeared to be currently for sale, but there is no date on the listing so who knows.

Steve

[ian45662]

I shoot a sighted smoothbore and thought at one time that there was an advantage until I shot an unsighted 42 better that I usually shoot my H&P. Granted it was only once at my home range but I did shoot a 42 in one event and I had the same amount of hits as I would expect otherwise. I would like to try a 42 for an entire skirmish and see what the difference is as a whole. I know a fella on here who may be willing to trade me his 42 for my H&P just for one shoot.

[jonk]

Perhaps not so simple as that, though. They are now rarer than hens teeth on my usual for-sale haunts. Even a Google search turned up only one that appeared to be currently for sale, but there is no date on the listing so who knows.

Steve
Well, I saw several at nationals. 1816 H&Ps, Potsdams, even a Baker and an Austrian 1840 tube lock gun.

you are right though, they don't come up as often as they used to for the 1816s.

[bobanderson]

Interesting that so many people "focus" on the rear sighted smoothbores as having an advantage. Until I got stupid and sold it, I had a 30" Macon Conversion that was the best gun for team matches. I could shoot 3 shots to the rest of the team's two and was deadly at 25 yards. Couldn't touch a thing at 50, which is why I went to the H&P. I should have worked out the 50 yard issues with the little gun. I am now building another Macon to get back where I want to be in Smoothbore.

As far as separating them, sorta reminds me of that joke that talks about how if one person doesn't like something he trys to outlaw it where another will simply buy/use what he wants. (I hope some of you appreciate how hard I tried to not use labels in this last part.)

[kowdok]

Gentleman and ladies
Lots of experimentation can take place at a regional skirmish as long as it is approved on the skirmish application. The Carolina region has been classifying sighted and unsighted SBs for individual targets at it's Homecoming skirmish for a couple of years now. We occasionally will shoot a 100yd event with SBs. This skirmish is always the last skirmish of the year being held the 2nd full weekend in Nov. Come join us and see how your unsighted SB compares to those with sights. My recollection tells me there is no difference, does this mean unsighted is as good as sighted or do the better shooters use unsighted SBs??????????????????????????????????????????????? ???

[Don Dixon]

I don't shoot smoothbore as yet, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But, you should realize that most European countries put rear sights on their smoothbore weapons. Examples are the Muster 1840 and 1842 Austro-Hungarian muskets and 1844 Extra Corps carbine, both in the original tubelock and in the non-rifled Belgian caplock conversions. My Piedmontese musket also has a rear sight, as does my Hamburg Burgergewehr. All of these weapons -- particularly the Austrians -- were imported in very significant numbers at the begining of the Civil War. Might be that the European designers were a bit smarter than the American ones. The Austrians also taught their soldiers how to use the sights on their smoothbores, rather than just blindly putting out a wall of lead, and offered prizes and pay bonuses for the best shots. Curiously, one finds Austrian weapons with the rear sights filed off a long time ago, based upon the patina. I suppose someone thought that if American smoothbores didn't have rear sights there was no reason to leave them on the Austrian guns. But, there are also stories of Carolina troops knocking the rear sights off of their Enfields because the only guns they had ever shot were shotguns. So, there are a lot of sighted smoothbore weapons out there which are completely original and for which the Small Arms Committeee would be obligated to provide authorization for use under the current rules.

Hi John.

Regards,
Don Dixon
2881V

[Mike McDaniel]

Don, there you go again with those pesky facts about foreign guns. :D Especially those KuK muskets.

[John Holland]

Ahhhh, there's no better way to start the day than reading a great post by my dear friend.....Mr. Don Dixon!

[stevierayvaughn]

Seems to me the big problem would be in keeping teams together. Do you swap and walk a team member just so you can have three 1842s or three Maynard/Potsdams? Some guys don't like to walk and will just sit it out or not sign up for the smoothbore shoot period. So if you separate sighted and unsighted, was it your team that won or did you place due to performance of the guy who walked to you. If there was real gold in the medals, I guess I could understand, but really guys........just shoot and have fun! :D

[Eggman]

The Austrians also taught their soldiers how to use the sights on their smoothbores, rather than just blindly putting out a wall of lead, and offered prizes and pay bonuses for the best shots.

Just like we put all our soldiers and Marines thru "Trainfire" so they get accustomed to taking aimed shots and then get their expert and sharpshooter medals and then they take well aimed shots when in actual combat. NOT!!! It's still a wall of lead in a firefight, just like always and before. Let's not kid ourselves - what we do is not what actually occurs in combat.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

"Trainfire"!!

Eggman, I respectfully beg to differ. Unlike many of the Vietnam War movie portrayals - today's Marines don't "throw out walls of lead" during fire fights - at least not since I was a Plt Ldr in Desert Storm and even more recently in Afghanistan.

I can't & won't speak for modern day Army Doggies.

When fighting a Counter Insurgency, it does very LITTLE to throw out volumes of lead. Doing so incurs collateral damage, something we take VERY seriously and work extremely hard at all tactical levels, from the Plt Sgt down to the most junior Pvt. Shooting "non-combatants" runs counter to the "winning hearts and minds"...

But we are in agreement in that what we do (skirmishing) is "not what actually occurs in combat". The founders of the NSSA NEVER intended for our beloved sport to even come close to emulating those conditions.

[Mike McDaniel]

But we are in agreement in that what we do (skirmishing) is "not what actually occurs in combat". The founders of the NSSA NEVER intended for our beloved sport to even come close to emulating those conditions.

If you don't mind, I'm going to skip the Eat Weevily Hardtack, Have Limbs Hacked Off, and Die of Various Diseases parts of the actual Civil War combat experience. :D

[Eggman]

Yo Rob that's why I inserted that word "firefight."

[P.Altland]

Also because we want to cut the extra time we are wasting on SB and others, why not just go back to facts....

How many centerfire guns were in the Civil War?
Whats the number of center fire guns being used in nationals... ?

why we get so many tight underwear people when we talk sighted and unsighed Yet we let people convert guns to centerfire, and let you change the sights all you want...
But don't touch your smoothbore sights.....


Really, again? Why do we continue to have this group who wishes to advance their agenda at the expense of other members? So we should just eliminate Spencer's, Star's, Ballard's, Henry's, etc ? Just go buy a rear-sighted Smoothbore and leave everybody else alone. There are plenty of Potsdams available at very reasonable prices. BTW, you can't alter H & P sights for windage or elevation corrections so you either bend the barrel or use the same Kentucky windage the front sighted smoothbores use.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Yo Rob that's why I inserted that word "firefight." That pot-shot game is obviously a different ballgame - as is fighting in built up areas. Obviously my reference point is Vietnam. My experiences were pretty much periodic bouts of H & I and one big 1:00 am battle vs. an attacking VC battalion - the whole battlefield lit up like high noon - and "you could have walked on the bullets." The jungle had been cleared a good mile out and still you could not see, as the saying goes, a damn soul. So lots of bullets everywhere. I suspect the gunship guys could see them but the mini guns still kind of constituted a "wall of lead." I guess the point is, with no visible targets, aimed shots are not relevant. In 1863 there was the smoke.
Then you have the pucker factor on top of everything. An unaimed shot is usually much better than no shot.

I hear you Eggman. I just got hooked initially on your reference to "Trainfire". I still have my late dad's Trainfire manual from the early 1950's. My experiences in "seeing the elephant" differed greatly as you could imagine from the vantage point as a 2dLt of a Rifle Platoon in Desert Storm and then as a LtCol in Op Enduring Freedom. I'll never forget my experience when making first contact against Iraqi forces in '91, and the other brief instances as we continued our advance into Kuwait. In Afghanistan Specter Gunships hold a special place in my heart. I recall one night when my team was saved by one of these wonderful aircraft. Before the plane got "on station" and the sun was setting, I can honestly say that I know what Custer must have felt when reality set in at Little Big Horn... I'd describe what these planes deliver as a "cone" of lead vice a wall. My gosh I'm utterly amazed at these platforms, & am certainly glad they're on our side!!! Anyhow, that was then, this is now. Enough said.

[Mike McDaniel]

Rob, I don't think people really appreciate just how much of a difference there was between the force we fielded in Vietnam and what went into Desert Storm or later. The qualitative difference in hardware was enormous, the difference in people even more so. I rather thought Tom Clancy put it best...it was War of the Worlds - and we were the Martians.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

You're right Mike. This was especially apparent when trying to relate/work with the Afghan National Army (ANA) or the average Afghan. We'd patrol/sweep through some remote villages, and it was if WE were from "outer space" with the array of technology and equipment at our disposal. Despite all that, it was still the sinewy 17 year old Afghan, lodged up in the mountains with an AK or RPG - elusive as a ghost in a wind storm - he and his cohorts were the real enduring presence...

[ian45662]

You could get a potsdam and not have to save for so long

[Scott Harris]

Harry, I am pretty sure Gary Bowling shot a pair of 97s with his '42 at the last national. The last time I checked my '42 it didn't have a rear sight. If I do my job ( as with my other guns ) it flat out kicks ass in team events. Work up your load, practice and run what you brung.

[Maillemaker]

Yup. I've got a stock Armisport 1842 with a glass-bedded barrel, and last month at the 20th GA skirmish I took 1st in 50yard, 3rd in 25 yard, and 1st in Smoothbore Ag. Our smoothbore team took 2nd. The skirmish before that I shot on Forrest Escort's B team and we beat their A team for 1st place smoothbore. I shoot tripple-dipped Alox balls made from wheel weight lead pushed with 70 grains 3F Goex.

So if you can hold a consistent site picture, you can do fine with no rear sight. I call it "equal parts of sunshine" on my '42 because I look for about equal parts of bright metal between the front and middle bands as I do between the middle band and the tang.

But there is no doubt in my mind that a rear sight would take all the guess work out of it.

I'd probably buy a repro H&P if it was available.

Steve

[Phil Spaugy, 3475V]

I will like my original M1842 smoothie. Been shooting it since we started smooth-bore.

No need for a rear sight to clutter up my sight picture and thought process.

[YOU DON'T KNOW ?]

yes I have a large wheel of cheese to go with all the whine., but meanwhile just remember, the national record now belongs to a gentleman who spent his time perfecting his skill with his original mod. 1842 smooth bore with no rear sight, instead of crying on this forum!

g. pope washington blue rifles

[P.Altland]

At what point did something short of a poker hand in an organization of thousands constitute a "real need for change"? I shoot a Macon. If we follow this logic string to it's inevitable conclusion, i'm at a clear disadvantage. I only have 1 sight and my gun is 12" shorter than the 42 that my fellow skirmisher may be shooting. Clearly, Macons should have their own classification and colored X because my ball has to travel further upon exiting the barrel. How about the poor fella' shooting a Richmond? Only 1 sight, shorter than a 42 and a Macon. May as well sit in camp. This is clearly a rediculous premice. If the weapon you bring to the line is the only obstacle to Gold Medal Glory, then change weapons. I venture to guess that it is more than that. A rear sight is a crutch intended to compensate for deficiencies is developing and maintaining a consistent anchor point. A shooter who has spent the time doing so can raise their gun to their shoulder, with their eyes closed and have a repeatable sight picture every time they open their eyes.

Ever watch world-class Olympic Archers? No rear sight, just a pin and a consistent anchor point developed by practice. How about Bob London? Shoots aspirins out of the air with a recurve bow and no sights. How? Consistent anchor point and sight picture.

Let's be realistic, rear-sighted Smoothbores are not allowed, by rule, to alter their sights in any way to change POI. They must still shoot Kentucky windage or bend the barrel. No different than a non rear-sighted Smoothbore. Smoothbore accuracy comes down to two things: (1) developing a load, with the correct ball fitment, lube and powder charge. (2) practice developing and maintaining a consistent anchor point and sight picture.

I see posts by people baffled that their performance in Individuals doesn't translate to Team events or vice versa. Shooters participating in individuals spend more time on target than they do during a team event. I would guess that if one were to ask any long time Smoothbore shooter,they would tell you that team events are more about muscle memory than seeking that perfect 10x hold. Any shooter who can shoot a 10x in individuals can, given the identical load, time spent on target and sight picture, shoot the same 10x consitently in team events and vice versa whether they have 2 sights or 1, period.

[MR. GADGET]

At what point did something short of a poker hand in an organization of thousands constitute a "real need for change"? I shoot a Macon. If we follow this logic string to it's inevitable conclusion, i'm at a clear disadvantage. I only have 1 sight and my gun is 12" shorter than the 42 that my fellow skirmisher may be shooting. Clearly, Macons should have their own classification and colored X because my ball has to travel further upon exiting the barrel. How about the poor fella' shooting a Richmond? Only 1 sight, shorter than a 42 and a Macon. May as well sit in camp. This is clearly a rediculous premice. If the weapon you bring to the line is the only obstacle to Gold Medal Glory, then change weapons. I venture to guess that it is more than that. A rear sight is a crutch intended to compensate for deficiencies is developing and maintaining a consistent anchor point. A shooter who has spent the time doing so can raise their gun to their shoulder, with their eyes closed and have a repeatable sight picture every time they open their eyes.

Ever watch world-class Olympic Archers? No rear sight, just a pin and a consistent anchor point developed by practice. How about Bob London? Shoots aspirins out of the air with a recurve bow and no sights. How? Consistent anchor point and sight picture.

Let's be realistic, rear-sighted Smoothbores are not allowed, by rule, to alter their sights in any way to change POI. They must still shoot Kentucky windage or bend the barrel. No different than a non rear-sighted Smoothbore. Smoothbore accuracy comes down to two things: (1) developing a load, with the correct ball fitment, lube and powder charge. (2) practice developing and maintaining a consistent anchor point and sight picture.

I see posts by people baffled that their performance in Individuals doesn't translate to Team events or vice versa. Shooters participating in individuals spend more time on target than they do during a team event. I would guess that if one were to ask any long time Smoothbore shooter,they would tell you that team events are more about muscle memory than seeking that perfect 10x hold. Any shooter who can shoot a 10x in individuals can, given the identical load, time spent on target and sight picture, shoot the same 10x consitently in team events and vice versa whether they have 2 sights or 1, period.


Paul

So tell me this, how did you shoot in the last several nationals?
Did not see your number pop up in the medals but I could have over looked it?
What class you in for SB?

[MR. GADGET]

BTW Paul

good rant there.

[P.Altland]

I didn't. I shoot Grand Agg.


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[P.Altland]

Still doesn't invalidate my point.


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[MR. GADGET]

If you are not shooting paper targets at nationals how can you have a dog in the fight or know what one is better.

All that talk about how great you gun shoots is just that if you don't get out to shoot paper at nationals.

[Chris Sweeney]

Well gee . . .
Let's have separate classes for Colt and Remington revolvers--Colts rear sight "goes away" when you shoot. Gives Remington shooters a competitive advantage.

Let's have separate classes for Sharps and Maynard carbines--Sharps shooters don't have to pull an empty case. Gives Sharps shooters a competitive advantage.

It's a lot easier to get 44/40 Henrys to shoot well than it is the 45's-- maybe we need to split them up too.

Everyone says three band muskets are inherently more accurate than two banders because of the increased sight radius; maybe the Zouave shooters need some relief here . . .

We can stretch this out until every single weapon is in its own class. Medals for everyone! Of course, the Nationals would run from Tuesday to Tuesday . . .

[MR. GADGET]

Has nothing to do with medals.
I really wish the N-SSA would change or do away with the medals.
It is a waste of pot medal and a waste of money the group does not have.
Maybe just cut the cost and do 3 medals in all events that warrant it.

It is more than a 2$ piece of pot medal, it is knowing how you stack up shooting against other like guns.

BTW
I can shoot any gun I want and in a few months will also have a few sighted smoothbores.
But what I like to shoot is the 42 and other guns built from them.

Even when I shoot Sighted smoothbore I will stand by my statment that they should have different classes.

[P.Altland]

I shot it at two Nationals and it did me well enough to earn 5-gun agg points both times.
The fact that I don't shoot individuals regularly doesn't disqualify me or change the principles and practices of shooting.
What does counter the argument that a non rear-sighted smoothbore can't compete is the fact that the gold medal and record holder is shooting a '42.
BTW, I made no mention of how me or my gun shoots.


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[P.Altland]

How can you start a reply post with "this has nothing to do with medals"? Isn't that the premise of this entire thread? The title says "Sighted smoothbores need to be in their own class" Why? The supposition is that smoothbores like the '42 can't compete in individuals.


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[MR. GADGET]

Reading must not be your strong point.

As I said, it has nothing to do with medals.
It has to do with shooting like guns and knowing how you stack up with someone shooting the same design gun.
Sighted or no sights.

All the pot medal can go away and put the money were it is needed, building membership, and a change of pace to retain members and add new members.

[P.Altland]

My reading comprehension and retention is just fine. Read back through the thread. Individual medals is specifically mentioned as a basis for separating smoothbores into separate classes.



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[MR. GADGET]

My reading comprehension and retention is just fine. Read back through the thread. Individual medals is specifically mentioned as a basis for separating smoothbores into separate classes.



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You must still have a reading problem.
I started the thread, I said it had nothing to do with medals.
I also said that they could put a S for sighted abd NS or the likes for no sights and leave everything as is.
Just so we know how we did on like guns. No change in the current system other then the marking by your number or score.


So before you bust my chops please point out were I said anything about medals specifically mentioned as a basis for separating smoothbores into separate classes.

[P.Altland]

Seriously? At no point in my original post did I mention you by name or otherwise. I didn't even use the word "you" anywhere. I also didn't mention the word "medals" anywhere. I simply stated, as an extension to the premise that rear sighted smoothbores have an advantage over 42's, that they in turn have an advantage over my Macon and by following this line of reasoning I should compete only against other Macons in Individuals. It was you who looked at my competitor number to see I finished in individual medals and raised the point.




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[P.Altland]

Correction, I used the word "you" once and it a generic "you" not a "you, you".


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[MR. GADGET]

. I didn't even use the word "you" anywhere. I also didn't mention the word "medals" anywhere.

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I just call it the way I see it.

You also used medals several times.

But no problems.
I see us having a beer at the next nationals joking about it. I will even buy.

[Eggman]

FOr the record, like most skirmihers I shoot individuals strictly to acclimize myself to the gun. I'll admit I've won a few regional medals just for the sake of convicing myself I can do it. As for the nationals, once I shoot a target I the determine whether or not it scores in the mid-nineties or not. If it does I shoot a few extra fives or sixes to make sure I don't hurt any medal hunter's feelings.

[Maillemaker]

If you are not shooting paper targets at nationals how can you have a dog in the fight or know what one is better.

All that talk about how great you gun shoots is just that if you don't get out to shoot paper at nationals.

I have to disagree with that one. You don't have to be in the N-SSA at all to prove or disprove this point. Tell ya what. I'll take my Ruger 10/22 with iron sights to the range and shoot a target group. Then I will remove the rear sight leaf and shoot again. I'm willing to bet you a Coke that I'll see a worse group with no rear sight. You could do this with your musket, too. I just used the 10/22 example to show that it doesn't have anything to do with the N-SSA.

If rear sights didn't matter they wouldn't bother putting them on guns.

I don't have to shoot at the Nationals to know that - a lifetime of shooting tells me that.

Now, can you shoot well with no rear sight? Absolutely! In fact, you can shoot well with no sights at all - I had a friend years ago who told me that some trick shooters would remove the sights from their guns entirely and "instinct shoot" simply by pointing and firing, shooting quarters out of the air. I'm sure you all have seen this. With enough practice and skill you can probably shoot well with no rear or front sight.

Still, a rear sight makes developing a consistent sight picture much easier.


I really wish the N-SSA would change or do away with the medals.
It is a waste of pot medal and a waste of money the group does not have.

Well, for me, I love medals. I've only been doing this for 3 years so it's still hot stuff to me. One of our teams, to save cost, has taken to giving, instead of medals, little stick-on engraved "name tags" that you can get at trophy shops. It has the award level (1st, 2nd, 3rd place) and the event name engraved on it. Much cheaper than medals. I think our team will do this next time we host a skirmish. Normally we do not give out medals, just certificates. Next time we host I will look into buying these name tag thingies out of my own pocket. I like them just as well as medals.

I made wall hanging plaques for my carbine and musket. Haven't gotten around to making one for my smoothbore yet as I just bought it at Christmas. I attach my medals to them, and now, stick the name-plates onto them. They hang in my hallway. It's how I display my guns and my medals. I'm proud of them.

Now I'd still have fun if we got no medals. In fact the thing I love the most about this sport is that I generally have absolutely [i]no idea[/u] how I am doing or how the team is doing while the competition is underway. I'm shooting for fun and against myself only. I used to throw darts in a league and when we were throwing for fun I did great but as soon as it was for money I did terrible. The pressure killed me. But in N-SSA shooting, there's no pressure to me at all. It's all for fun. And more than that, I love watching other people hit targets just as much as when I hit them myself. Probably more so because it's less work when other people do it! :)

Steve

[John Holland]

All of you can argue sights, ammo, projectiles, powder, concept, etc., until the cows come home for all I care.....BUT.....if the personal attacks continue I will lock this down tighter than a drum. Got it?

JDH
Moderator

[Gary B]

I guess its my turn to weigh in on this topic. All I can say is that I have both a '42 and an H & P and I have shot both for a while. I prefer the '42 because it has no rear sight. (eyes are not what they used ta be, yaknow)

In my experience I can see no real advantage to the H & P (or any rear sighted smoothie) for paper shooting. I continue to shoot better scores with the '42 than the H & P. If there is any advantage to the H & P at all, it may be in team matches as it may make it possible to acquire your sight picture faster (but I am still not convinced of that). We have won the Smoothbore match several times with all '42's on the team.

I am not a fan of starting to break down our weapon categories any further than they are now. As stated in other posts here it may opens Pandora's box. Muskets, Carbines, revolvers and Smoothbores all come in various sizes and configurations within their categories. With all the choices available I think it is up to the shooter to determined which one fits best and works best for their needs....... then get good with it.


Thanks for listening,
Gary B.

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

I have been following this thread with mixed feelings.Good points have been made on both sides of the issue. In the interest of fulldisclosure I shoot an unsighted M1842 smoothbore and have had my good days andbad days with it. After winning a few medals, I made it briefly to expert classbut now I'm back to marksman class. I would likely be a little more consistentif I had a rear sight to provide a more consistent sight picture. I would agreethat a good load and a consistent stock weld are absolutely essential forsuccess but I also recognize the perception that a rear sight offers anadvantage. Some might consider it an unfair advantage. Others evidently havethat same perception otherwise there would not be such a demand for sightedsmoothbores and a reluctance by those that have them to give them up. As thearms race heats up there will be few of us left with unsighted smoothbores justlike there are relatively few of us shooting Colt revolvers today.
As has already been pointed out, we can't keepsubdividing our competition by the multitude of differences found in Civil Warfirearms. In carbine competition we have lumped musketoons in with the variousbreechloading carbines. It makes little difference in individual competitionbut a big difference in team competition where reloading speed comes into play.Few have complained about this rather significant disparity. We now segregatesingle-shot breechloading rifles from the repeaters and, more recently, theSpencers have been separated from the Henrys based upon the disparity in therate of fire. This seems so inconsistent. If we were to separate sighted andunsighted smoothbores based upon sight pictures, using the same logic we couldsegregate 1st Model Maynard carbines with those nifty adjustable tang sights,or as someone pointed out in jest, having separate competition for Colt andRemington revolvers.
I happen to own three original .69 caliber, percussionconversion rifled muskets and none them ever had a rear sight. This perhapsreflects the military's haste to get weapons into the hands of troops and/or alack of confidence in the marksmanship of the average soldier. I wonder ifanyone is interested in a new match for rifled muskets lacking rear sights?That is a rhetorical question and doesn't mean we should indulge suchindividuals looking for new challenges.

[Maillemaker]

I happen to own three original .69 caliber, percussionconversion rifled muskets and none them ever had a rear sight. This perhapsreflects the military's haste to get weapons into the hands of troops and/or alack of confidence in the marksmanship of the average soldier.

I'm sure they were omitted because with issued ammo in the hands of regular soldiers a rear sight wasn't very beneficial on most smoothbore arms. I have no idea, but it would not surprise me to learn that the rear sight was put on some conversions in anticipation of possible future rifling of the arms rather than to make them better-shooting smoothbores. But that's pure speculation on my part.

I personally am not much in favor of further compartmentalization of the shooting classes simply because the N-SSA is shrinking rather than growing. It's hard enough for us to muster enough shooters to field full teams as it is. If the organization was growing that would be a different situation but as it stands right now we need to make it as inclusive as possible.

I think people would be less concerned about this issue if rear-sighted smoothbores were commonly available to buy, because then if you wanted one you could just get one. Right now they aren't. This is not to say you can't get one, simply that there are not many listed for sale online and the ones I have seen start at around $1500. Contrasted with Armisport '42s that go for about $900. Now original '42s are going for $1200 and up but right now there are at least 3 of those on Gunbroker, though I did not examine them closely to see if they looked like Kyber Pass junk.

Steve

[Michael T.]

QYB!!! It's the nut behind the butt that counts! just go out and have FUN!!!

[P.Altland]

[emoji107]


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[Maillemaker]

"Closing threads" annoys me. Threads will close themselves when people are done talking about an issue. I don't mind moderators deleting disruptive posts but I hate the practice of shutting down threads. I'm of the opinion that if you are tired of reading a particular thread discussion don't click on it.

Steve

[John Holland]

Harry Gaul - Go talk to Jim Brady, he was the first "Lord & Master of the Smoothbore" and he did it with a front sight only as I remember it!

[WBR10654]

FINE BUT... they shoot in the same relay and you cannot shoot two smoothbores...

[ian45662]

Challenge accepted!!!

[efritz]

Here's what one should do to have a fighting chance. And this goes for any firearm.
1. The firearm must be clean. Strip it down excluding the lock. There is no substitute. Don't overlook the flash hole, and nipple hole. Don't over grease the lock. Have the lock worked for correct trigger pull and lock timing. You will only be as good as your equipment.
2. All long guns must be benched with sandbags for all testing.
3. This is where the WORK begins. If you don't want to put in the work, then read no further.
4. With a RB 12-15 thousandths under bore size, file off the sprue, then run the ball under a wood rasp or furiers file, dipped 1x in Alox.
Fire ten shots from the bench 50yds. Not 25yds. You want to win, you have to do it at 50yds. If it groups at 50 it will group at 25. With 1 1/2 F Swiss starting low on the amount of grains, say 40-46. Increase in two grain increments each ten succeeding string of ten shots up to about 70 grains. Keep the targets for comparison.
Then use 2F Swiss and repeat.
Then use 3F Swiss and repeat.
Then use 2F GOEX and repeat.
Then use 3F GOEX and repeat.
5. In between each ten shot string clean the bore with a few patches with simple green and dry patches. Do this because you will have to fire ten shots on a Nat'ls. target.
6. With each target and with a compass if you want, draw a circle around the group so as the line intersects the two most distant holes. The diameter will equal your group size. You will notice with your targets going from large to small to large.
Pick the load with the smallest group. Don't worry during this process where the group is. You have to make those adjustments when you shoot it offhand.

When you are done, you will have fired approx. 750 rounds. You will have done what it takes to have a fighting chance. The rest is up to you. I'll admit that it also takes some shooting talent to be good along with eyesight, holding and squeezing. Youth helps too and that's something we loose everyday.

I do this testing regimen for every firearm I have used. If I use different bullets, it's back to the bench. Now I will boast a little because you want to know what the good shooters do. I have won every aggregate there is. I am a D-SSA shooter with every firearm, 3 gun, and 5 gun. I have been shooting competitive since I was 9 years old. A lot of .22 position shooting. I began shooting BP when I was 18 and except for a stint in the SE Asian war games where we finished 2nd, I have continued to shoot BP and other firearms during the Winter months for some trigger time. All in all approx. 45 years. I started with a "42" and won some SB agg. points and went to an H&P. Here's something that'll make you go hmmm. I was short of 25 points with the 42. Bought the H&P, WORKED on it, and then won the SB agg. Haven't placed in the agg. since. A few years now.

In summation. You have to WORK at it. You can't just use what someone else is using or doing. If it were easy, everybody would be doing it. Oh, and three more things. Practice, practice, practice.

Hope this helps all.

[Maillemaker]

Now I haven't been to a Nationals, so who knows how it goes there, but I just wanted to say while I have certainly put the kind of effort Eric suggests into working up loads for ornery guns, for my 42, I got it nailed down in an afternoon.

Now some of the work had already been done for me - I bought the thing used and it had already been glass bedded. I used the Lyman .678 mold that came with the gun. I cast my balls from wheel weight lead, got a Mike Rouch sprue cutter and made them nice and round, and tripple-dipped them in Lee Alox as one of our team's great SB shooters does.

Then I made up loads of 3F Goex from like 40 grains up to 80 or something, I don't remember, in 5 grain increments. The group started to tighten up at 55 grains, and was blowing a ragged hole in the paper at 70 grains at 25 yards.

70 grains is now what I use and in the two skirmishes I've shot it in I've taken individual medals, including some 1st place, and the teams I shot with got 1st and 2nd place.

So it doesn't have to be a career. :)

Steve

[Eggman]

Having very good success with everything about the same except the load - I use 48 grains fffg. I'm afraid 70 will loosen your teeth over time Steve. If not that there's a good chance you'll start developing a case of the flinchies.

[Eggman]

The qualitative difference in hardware was enormous, the difference in people even more so.

Yeah Mike - I encourage you to schedule yourself into the next Fifth Special Forces Group reunion at Fort Campbell next year. Here you will be able to explain to the old guys their "enormous" inferiority to folks now being deployed to combat zones.

[jonk]

Here's what one should do to have a fighting chance. And this goes for any firearm.
1. The firearm must be clean. Strip it down excluding the lock. There is no substitute. Don't overlook the flash hole, and nipple hole. Don't over grease the lock. Have the lock worked for correct trigger pull and lock timing. You will only be as good as your equipment.
2. All long guns must be benched with sandbags for all testing.
3. This is where the WORK begins. If you don't want to put in the work, then read no further.
4. With a RB 12-15 thousandths under bore size, file off the sprue, then run the ball under a wood rasp or furiers file, dipped 1x in Alox.
Fire ten shots from the bench 50yds. Not 25yds. You want to win, you have to do it at 50yds. If it groups at 50 it will group at 25. With 1 1/2 F Swiss starting low on the amount of grains, say 40-46. Increase in two grain increments each ten succeeding string of ten shots up to about 70 grains. Keep the targets for comparison.
Then use 2F Swiss and repeat.
Then use 3F Swiss and repeat.
Then use 2F GOEX and repeat.
Then use 3F GOEX and repeat.
5. In between each ten shot string clean the bore with a few patches with simple green and dry patches. Do this because you will have to fire ten shots on a Nat'ls. target.
6. With each target and with a compass if you want, draw a circle around the group so as the line intersects the two most distant holes. The diameter will equal your group size. You will notice with your targets going from large to small to large.
Pick the load with the smallest group. Don't worry during this process where the group is. You have to make those adjustments when you shoot it offhand.

When you are done, you will have fired approx. 750 rounds. You will have done what it takes to have a fighting chance. The rest is up to you. I'll admit that it also takes some shooting talent to be good along with eyesight, holding and squeezing. Youth helps too and that's something we loose everyday.

I do this testing regimen for every firearm I have used. If I use different bullets, it's back to the bench. Now I will boast a little because you want to know what the good shooters do. I have won every aggregate there is. I am a D-SSA shooter with every firearm, 3 gun, and 5 gun. I have been shooting competitive since I was 9 years old. A lot of .22 position shooting. I began shooting BP when I was 18 and except for a stint in the SE Asian war games where we finished 2nd, I have continued to shoot BP and other firearms during the Winter months for some trigger time. All in all approx. 45 years. I started with a "42" and won some SB agg. points and went to an H&P. Here's something that'll make you go hmmm. I was short of 25 points with the 42. Bought the H&P, WORKED on it, and then won the SB agg. Haven't placed in the agg. since. A few years now.

In summation. You have to WORK at it. You can't just use what someone else is using or doing. If it were easy, everybody would be doing it. Oh, and three more things. Practice, practice, practice.

Hope this helps all.
Even that isn't adequate. You also have to try hard lead vs. soft lead, musket lube vs. alox, 12-15/1000ths vs. 10/1000ths, etc.

What I do when I get a new gun is take it out with a likely bullet and likely powder charge, say 40 gr. Up by 2 gr, try again, repeat, etc. Run the full spectrum out to a max of whatever. If the gun tightens up, note what the best load for that bullet/powder was.

Repeat at the next outing with a different bullet. Make notes again if it performs with a certain charge.

When all is done, take out each bullet with the best powder charge and repeat.

Now start over with hard lead.

Eventually you get down to 3-4 top contenders, all of which should in principle be capable of shooting a perfect 50 from the bench. Now start playing with actual measurements and calipers and compases and such.

That said... it's a rare thing that you can't cheat things a bit and assume that a smoothie won't do well with something in the 45-50 gr range and that's a good place to start; and if you get lucky and find a group that from a bench has all shots touching, well, no need to go further.