Best bullet for busting stakes

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

I have not been terribly impressed with the flat nose carbine bullets and minies when it comes to busting stakes. Have any of you found a bullet type that does a better job of breaking up particle board?

[John Holland]

IMHO, because particle board is such a consistently manufactured product, the key is not the projectile, but rather increased accuracy of the competitors.

[MR. GADGET]

You can take about any 58 or 69 and bore the end out making it a heavy wad cutter and it works.
that is what I have in a 58 for most.
the bigger the better and flat.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Thanks, John,

It would be far easier to improve the bullet than the accuracy at this point. We can bust a stake with 4 shots using 69 cal round balls out of smoothbores but the carbine stake events are terrible. The bullet diameter seems to make a BIG difference. I guess that we need to use .69 caliber muskets and carbines.

[Kevin Tinny]

Hello, Jim:
Pure lead helps.

My .690 bore, ball bench rifle, a 56 pound beast, would punch .875"-7/8" holes in the target card and backer at 200 yards. Ok, with a muzzle velocity of 2500 fps from 250 gr 2Fg and the 500 gr swaged ball, it laid the grass down for 25 yards. The ball was expanding as it just hit the paper in front of a thin cardboard backer. The scoring room sent someone to ask what bore I was shooting because they didn't have overlays that large. We didn't unleash the 1inch one.

Admittedly muskets won't achieve all of this, but pure 4.5Bhn just might expand enough to matter.
Regards,
Kevin

[MR. GADGET]

Thanks, John,

It would be far easier to improve the bullet than the accuracy at this point. We can bust a stake with 4 shots using 69 cal round balls out of smoothbores but the carbine stake events are terrible. The bullet diameter seems to make a BIG difference. I guess that we need to use .69 caliber muskets and carbines.
Jim
if I remember there is nothing wrong with having a stake gun.
by that I'm saying for the stake event carry a ringer.
Carry a front stuffer with a big 58.
Not sure if there are any carbines for say that are 69 and dont know why a 24" 69 cal smoothbore could not be used or something like that.
One would think you could use a 30 macon SB but all be it short and like a carbine I don't think they will let you.

Rules... too many rules all for fun or what a 50 cent metal.

Yet they let sighted smoothbores shoot with unsighted.... Got to love the rules.

but I'm getting side tracked.... But it's fun....

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Hands down the Hodgdon bullet! This projectile does extremely good work on particle board stakes.

With it's design, when that sharp shoulder/edge penetrates, the effects are quite impressive.

Some will argue in favor of trashcan-style/flat nose rounds which weigh more, i.e., that they pack a bigger "punch" in energy transfer. But the results of Hodgdons are clearly evident on the line when the horn sounds and the smoke clears...

That round, plus a well sighted in muzzle stuffer carbine, like a Richmond, and you have a sweet, accurate "one trick pony" for carbine matches involving a stake.

[RaiderANV]

I use to dag out my .72 Austrian cavalry carbine for the stake. Used the Lyman shotgun slug in it and it easily tore up to 1" wholes in the stake.
For musket I always brush my bore before the event and load the first round point down. It'll reliably hit point of aim or within an inch and tear a big whole. After the first shot and the fouling you have to load them normally or you won't hit anything.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Now these were the kind of suggestions that I was looking for.

Thanks, Rob, for confirming that the Hodgdon is the best 58 caliber bullet for stake busting. I currently shoot it and I will encourage other team members to get some Hodgdons from the two of us on my team who shoot them when we have a stake event with musket.

What I would like to know is if anyone has come up with an alteration to the carbine bullets used in Maynards and Smiths that will improve their performance against stakes. Options would include harder lead, drilling out the nose to make it a hollow point, cutting off the nose to make it a wadcutter, or just loading it up side down to make it a wadcutter.

Also what is the minimum number of shots to break a stake with different caliber bullets? I know that it can be done with four 69 cal round balls at 25 yards, but I would like to know the minimum number of shots that you have seen with all 58 cal, all 54 cal, or all 50 cal carbine bullets. I won't even ask about 36 cal as I think that would be next to impossible to do in 5 minutes and nobody shoots all 36's against stakes for obvious reasons.

[MR. GADGET]

They make the hogdon bullet for the smith and other 50 cal.
it is even adjustable for flat base or hollow base and weight of 220 to 450 or so.
I have one of the RCBS molds.

[Charlie Hahn]

Round ball in a Sharps works well

[Kevin Tinny]

Hollow pointing helps, too; especially at slower velocity with soft lead bullets.
Regards,
Kevin

[Maillemaker]

Canister. :)

Steve

[Don Branch 12592]

Jim - I have seen the stake broke with 4 hits, .58 caliber minie's (3 Hogdon + 1 Rapine international) in about 26 seconds (1 volley +1 shot). Some where I have a picture of it...

[Tom Magno, 9269V]

Hollow pointing helps, too; especially at slower velocity with soft lead bullets.
Regards,
Kevin

In the firearms we use, I really don't think a hollow-point will begin to expand until it has already passed thru the 1/2"-3/4" particle board, therefore no advantage. A flat-point/large metplat in my opinion is the better bullet for stakes.

[jonk]

Well, in an ideal world, a straight up trash can would do best in so far as it would cut a clean hole. The larger the diameter the better.

That said I'd rather shoot a conventional bullet that leaves a slightly smaller hole if that's what the gun was most accurate with.

It's an event we shoot so rarely that I wouldn't bother developing a special load for it.

I'd like to shoot stakes more often; heck I'd like to do a REAL Stake event with the post in the ground sometime, like from days gone by, before I started. But... barring a donation, those cost money.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

I agree with several of you who have posted that a wadcutter with a completely flat nose should work the best. Now I don't happen to have a Hodgdon mould for my Maynard and I would rather not buy one. I was wondering if any of you have ever tried shooting that 3 ring Smith Maynard bullet backwards out of a full capacity Maynard case. I checked it out with my gun and if you invert the bullet you can leave the bottom grease ring showing and the case will chamber OK. It looks like it should work, but before I try it, I thought I would see if anyone else has already done it and what the results were.

[hobbler]

Read this thread with interest.
Never shot fiberboard but I would have thought that a sharp point to push outwards followed by the chop of the sharp shoulder ring would be the most disruptive.

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Hobbler,

You're correct - that's why I'm a big advocate for the Hodgdon round. It causes a good amount of damage, esp. on the "exit" side of the stake, plus it's extremely accurate (yes even in the wind!). Flat nosed rounds aren't as efficient in particle board. They cut a nice hole, and they do slightly more powder due to their weight, against telephone poles or solid wood yes, then I'd suggest heavier, flat nosed projectiles.

Different rounds for different targets. The right tool for the right job.

Changing gears - shooting Maynard rounds that have the bullets seated upside down would have only marginal effect, that is assuming you even hit the mark. Shooting the round "bass ackwards" would have more of an effect (negative) on accuracy than the stake itself...

[Charlie Hahn]

Hobbler,

You're correct - that's why I'm a big advocate for the Hodgdon round. It causes a good amount of damage, esp. on the "exit" side of the stake, plus it's extremely accurate (yes even in the wind!). Flat nosed rounds aren't as efficient in particle board. They cut a nice hole, and they do slightly more powder due to their weight, against telephone poles or solid wood yes, then I'd suggest heavier, flat nosed projectiles.

Different rounds for different targets. The right tool for the right job.

Changing gears - shooting Maynard rounds that have the bullets seated upside down would have only marginal effect, that is assuming you even hit the mark. Shooting the round "bass ackwards" would have more of an effect (negative) on accuracy than the stake itself...

Thinking about the backward Maynard, With the low velocity we shoot, this might be worth a try. The base of the bullet could have a radius around the base, and the nose would work like a boat tail. Another advantage would be the center of mass is moved forward. Could be an interesting experiment.

Charlie

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Charlie,

Thanks for commenting on my backward bullet idea. I was really hoping for some validation from someone before I tried it. Like you, I thought about the nose acting like a boattail. I should be able to try it tomorrow at the range and I will report back on how it works.

[MR. GADGET]

Read this thread with interest.
Never shot fiberboard but I would have thought that a sharp point to push outwards followed by the chop of the sharp shoulder ring would be the most disruptive.

Yep I always had fun shooting different items like the stake or wood blocks and stuff.

A lot of those targets were banned in our region from the talk last weekend.
Several of us were talking about fun targets and just stuff that was different.

Lot more fun when the targets are fun and different from time to time.

[Rebel Dave]

About loading bullets backwords. Some where in all my readings of old guns, i can remember reading, that the then new "Walker Colt revolver" had some problems with the troopers loading them when they were first issued. Some of the troops would load them backwords, and some of them blew up. Now I know that they had troubles, at the time with "metalurgy", and that was part of the problem, thats why the "Walker" ended up being so big,and heavy. The bullets were hollow base conicals, also.

Might want to think about backwards loading.

Rebel Dave

[hobbler]

Yall making me think about that flat point Lee trash can minie mold that's been sitting forever in the shoe box.
I don't know if I could hit anything with it backwards but I'd love to see it hit a water jug!

[sherm burres]

Yall making me think about that flat point Lee trash can minie mold that's been sitting forever in the shoe box.
I don't know if I could hit anything with it backwards but I'd love to see it hit a water jug!
I have been experimenting with a control tumble projectile for near to 50 years,when stakes were real wood,some success with keyholes but they go wherever they want to.still trying thou.

[John Robey]

The bullet doesn't break the stake; The stake is broken by a competent marksman putting any bullet in the right spot.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

I shot an inverted Maynard bullet out of my Romano carbine today and it functioned fine. I used 26 gr. of 3f in a full capacity Maynard case with the bottom ring on the bullet exposed. The bullet is from a Lee 6 way mould and looks like the Lyman 515139 I sized the bullet to .516". Three shots went through the same hole, but about 2 inches to the right. One went low and the other was on target. 4 of the 5 shots were at the same elevation. I inspected the backer and could not see that the 1/2 inch plywood was any more affected by these shots than others that went through it. For further testing a stake would be needed.

Given a choice, I would go with a muzzle stuffer .58 carbine over a 50 cal any day. Muzzle stuffers are accurate and while you load a little more slowly, stakes are broken by accurate shooting. But the larger diameter bullets are clearly an advantage as they make bigger holes. An accurate 69 caliber carbine would be even better. And I would not recommend a 36 caliber no matter how well you can place your shots. The two keys to stake busting are accurate shooting and large diameter bullets.

[Curt]

Hallo!

This brings back decades old discussions around the campfires... :)

Just a-funnin', and NOT that I am suggesting or proposing it in any way/shape/form/attempt/works or not... just for fun again... there was the discussion of drilling out the nose of a Minie and inserting nose first a .22 blank to make an "exploding stake bullet."

:) :) :)

Curt
Who lost many an event when the stake was held together by a tiny fraction of an inch of particle board we could not hit or snap...

[RaiderANV]

Been there......tried that.....nut'n happened.

[Jim Barber]

I wonder if you would do more damage with the slowest/lightest load possible that would still group semi-well? It'd have more time to distribute its energy across the stake...

[Jim Barber]

By lightest I mean powder charge, not bullet weight. Like a 650 fps .69 minie, for example.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

Jim,

I think that the 69 minie is devastating enough at normal velocities. I have no doubt that a good musket team using 69 cal. minies could consistently break the stake with one volley. The .69 is that good against stakes. All we need now is for a team to equip themselves with .69 caliber muskets and they will own the stake event any time that it comes up. All you probably need is 2 good shooters out of 8 with 69's and you could consistently break the stake with no more than two vollies.