Ruondballs

[B-Davis]

I do not want to stir up a hornet's nest here, I am just asking a question for basic discussion, and am quite happy what ever the answer will be. I am working on two 1817 common rifles at the moment, and both have the original .54 cal rifling. Now, I recently traded for a .54 caliber flinter for deer hunting and have found a great load that I am using and the round ball is wrapped in tinfoil as a patch.
I am curious to see if this method will work in the common rifles also. IF and that is a BIG if, this method would work in the common rifles, would it be legal to have round balls wrapped in tinfoil for competition? I know that it is legal for smoothbore, should the same reasoning go for a rifle? Fortunately, the wrapped tinfoil does not make a tight seal like a cloth patch and is easy to get down the bore and there is no residue left. I am just curious as to what the rules would say about using that system in a rifled bore.

bryan

[ian45662]

Where do ya get the tin foil? Wonder if it's pure tin

[Eggman]

Can't get my mind around a tinfoil "patch" in a rifle - at all. To me it is an "anti-patch," i.e., the tinfoil will not compress, ergo, no tight fit. Cannot imagine the advantage it has over a cloth patch. You need to document all and submit it to "Muzzle Blasts." Soon bricks will fill the air.

[B-Davis]

It is aluminum foil, not tin. Using a .535 ball and two pices of foil wrapped around the ball, it seems to shoot well out of the CVA I have. I had read an article about it and tried it. It seemed to work with no ill effects.

[Eggman]

Guys - off the bench, please shoot a five shot group at fifty yards for us with the discussed round balls and aluminum patches and post target here. Thank you!

[B-Davis]

Would love to, but I can not. We are in the process of moving and will be out of service for about 2-3 months. My last shooting trip was about two weeks ago and i am
down till summer.

[B-Davis]

https://books.google.com/books?id=At7YP0j6lAkC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=shooting+round+ball+with+aluminium+foil+patch&source=bl&ots=JYsYj2Mo9i&sig=vTMLUX7aGF0eYdMrOqLsUQMDRzo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YRMgVYC3GISEsAWG4YPwCQ&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=shooting%20round%20ball%20with%20aluminium%20foi l%20patch&f=false

here is part of the article I had gotten it from. Between ramming the ball home and the ignition of powder, doesn't the ball deform enough for the ball to engage?

[Eggman]

I got to tell you guys, I was absolutely convinced no one could make a smoothbore shoot until I watched Lani Harrison go like 23 for 23 at the Eva Tennesse skirmish a couple years ago. On this aluminum thing I got to see it done and then maybe somebody explain to me why it works. The ball deforming, or obterating, harkens back to Sam Fadala's theories in the 70's - he postulated that a cloth patch actually prevented a round ball from "obterating" or deforming into the rifling - hence it was an "antigasket." I believe he was tarred and feathered and then lynched..

[K. Herrick]

Eggman,

Shot this in Eva with my Potsdam, .721 roundball with a tin foil patch. This was at 50 yards off shoulder.

Kevin

http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3137&stc=1

[RaiderANV]

Eggs asked me to tell you he'd comment later after he finishes drooling over the target while scratching his head in wonderment.

[John Holland]

Kevin, congratulations on your 50-2X, superb shooting!

[gemmer]

Questions for Kevin.

Would you mind providing some details regarding foil patched ball?

Aluminum or tin?
I've always been curious about how you prevent fouling build up with this method. Assuming that you use
lube within the patch and ball per Bilby's book, how does the lube help when it's on the inside?
What is the bore size of your musket?

Thanks,

Duane

[John Holland]

gemmer - I realize your question is addressed to Kevin, but I will share my experience with you for what it is worth....maybe 2 cents! Some 45+ years ago I was invited to compete in a BAR live fire match. They were very kind in allowing me to use my original flint M-1816 musket. Their instructions were to come in some kind of Rev War uniform and the ammunition had to be tinfoil wrapped. So, I was pretty much on my own. I showed up as a very poor Colonial volunteer. Not knowing exactly what they wanted in a "tin foil wrapped cartridge" I invented my own. Although they said "tinfoil", I had to use aluminum foil because I don't believe real "tinfoil" is available any more. I made a long cylinder, twisted one end off, poured my powder charge in and twisted that off. This left a "cup" above the powder charge. I then liberally greased the ball with Crisco, dropped it into the "cup", and twisted that shut. To load I tore open the bottom which exposed the powder and dumped it down the barrel, followed by the remaining cartridge with the ball to the top. In firing what happens is the foil helped to seal the bore, the Crisco kept the bore lubricated and moist, and the tinfoil scraped the fouling fairly well on the way out! I was able to load and fire the entire match without ever having to stop to wipe the bore. The bore diameter was 0.690" and the ball was 0.687", with a powder charge of 65 Gr. of 2FFG DuPont. Oh, as for the results of the match, I won it and a very much coveted reproduction of a British 1763 Cartridge Box and Sling....I was never invited back.

I hope this has helped you a bit, but like I said it is only my experience.

[K. Herrick]

OK Duane here goes,

Go to the Dollar General and purchase the cheapest aluminum foil you can.....using a paper cutter, cut the foil into 6 inch squares.

Lay a piece of cut foil on your bench and place a ball in the center, next place a charged tube on top of the ball and wrap the foil upwards and twist the top, it should look like a Hershey Kiss. I dip the ball section only into the lube twice allowing the lube to dry between coats. The final step is to perforate the foil between the ball/tube interface.

When loading rip the foil twist and dump the powder down your bore, grab the tube and push the ball/foil into the bore and rip sideways, ram the ball home.

The reason I perforate the foil is when the bore starts to heat up, if the holes are not in the foil, the ball will "bounce 'out of the bore in the ripping process.

I use 60 grains 3f Goex, lube 60%crisco 40% bees wax, you might adjust for temperature.

http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3143&stc=1http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3144&stc=1http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3145&stc=1


Hope this answers your questions,

Good Luck, Kevin

[K. Herrick]

Sorry Duane,

My bore is .727 and the ball I cast is .721

Kevin

[gemmer]

My thanks to John and Kevin.

Duane

[K. Herrick]

For some reason the other pictures didn't show....so here they are

http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3146&stc=1http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3147&stc=1

Kevin

[Eggman]

Eggs asked me to tell you he'd comment later after he finishes drooling over the target while scratching his head in wonderment.

Drip drip slobber slobber slurp slurp --- I have a theory to explain the accuracy on the smoothbore foils - the foil centering the ball while still allowing rotation within the foil for stability once airborne. I can't see how the foil works in a rifle. Perhaps the blast jams the foil into the rifling which then transfers the rifling rotation to the ball?? Show me please -- want to see some targets like Kevin's. Also any spent foil/balls if possible.
(Took third in smoothbore at the last 44th GA skirmish - after Kevin and Big Jim Koch of the Escort I believe. In addition to foil Kevin is using some kind of voodoo).

[Eggman]

A bit more on that 44th skirmish - Kevin straggled onto the Escort B smoothbore -- whereupon the B's humiliated the A's and all or most everyone else - don't know who for sure cause the medals are still in the mail. Kevin's only weakness is to Southern diseases - in bed sick Sunday. Oh the individual 3rd place was in 50 yd smoothbore. The 25 yd match is really aimed at the folks who hit the sack by 8:30.

[B-Davis]

As I said, I have not had time to work a load with the Common Rifles, but, here is what I did with the CVA flinter. I took the .535 balls, and put them in a plastic tub with Alox. I shook them up until they looked like brown golf balls. I let them sit for a week until they were tacky. I then rolled them in aluminium foil. It then dipped the entire piece into a beeswax/Criso lube and let dry.
When I would load them, I had just the slightest restistance seating them on the barrel. (Probably the wax) and the rammed the ball home. I "smacked" the ball once or twice with the ramrod, and fired. Being a round ball, I was firing 62 grains of 2 FF. With that being said, just be caused it worked in one Rifke, does not mean it would work in another. I am still curious, just as a general question, would it be legal for competition. I am just looking for possible routes. My other thought was to try a .54 caliber Wilkinson style compression bullet.

[efritz]

Harry,

The SB musket aside, how's the horse pistol coming?

Eric

[Maillemaker]

Hi Kevin,

Could you explain your aluminum foil cartridge construction again? I'm not following.

You say you place the ball in the foil square, then put the charged rubber tube on top of the ball, then wrap up the whole package with the foil, twisting on top?

So the twisted foil is what is keeping the powder from coming out of the rubber tube? The rubber tube stays inside the foil?

So the ball is not actually completely wrapped in foil then, only partially?

And then you perforate the foil at the junction of the ball and rubber tube so that the foil tears there more easily?

Thanks,

Steve

P.S. I shot my Armisport 1842 for the first time at a skirmish last month. I got to shoot with the venerable Forrest Escort B team that went to first place. I believe where we pulled it off was at 50 yards.

I myself use .678 round balls, with a sprue cutter from Mike Rouche, and then tripple-dip in Lee Alox. I omitted the recommended "rub between two files" step and learned that this is not a good idea as frequently the Lee Alox flakes off otherwise. The file marks are said to prevent that. Anyway, once I figured out where to aim the thing on the pigeon board I was shooting at least some courses of fire with no misses at 25 yards. But I got nothing in individuals.

[Rick Ramey]

Mr. Herrick, this is pretty darn smart, how did you ever think of this....

[Eggman]

Hi Kevin,

Could you explain your aluminum foil cartridge construction again? I'm not following.

.

Just a heads up, I was standing beside these two guys (Kevin and Big Steve) on the line shooting the smoothbore during the spectacular usurpation of the Escort A team by the B's. I was present during the pigeon board going four for four including the all important last pigeon, but spent most of the rest of the match as spectator barely scraping out a hit or two. If you missed you had to kiss your targets goodbye to someone else's shot. The heads up is these guys will be running things in a few years. Both guys are brilliant. Big Steve absorbs information like a sponge. If he starts attending nationals he'll own the place.

[K. Herrick]

Mailmaker,

Check your PM.

Kevin