Most Accurate .577?

[hobbler]

Which model of .577 bore musket was considered to provide the best accuracy?
1853?
1858?
1861?
1863?
Other?

How come?

[jonk]

In terms of originals at any rate, I believe generally speaking I'd vote for the 1858 pattern Enfield. Heavy barrel, plus the Parker Hale rifling and bullet design were really well mated.

That said, none of these were target guns and while 1000 plus yard hits would be lethal, it was a case of volley fire, for which any were adequate. And, inside of say 300 yards, all could hit a man sized target. So in practice, I don't know as it was even an issue.

[hobbler]

I read (somewhere once upon a time) that in matches the shooters of 48" twist models had points deducted to level the field.
Wish I could find it... looking but no luck so far.

[Muley Gil]

"In terms of originals at any rate, I believe generally speaking I'd vote for the 1858 pattern Enfield. Heavy barrel, plus the Parker Hale rifling and bullet design were really well mated."

I can't remember the name of the rifling right now (CRS disease), but it wasn't Parker-Hale, as they didn't come into being until after the War of Yankee Aggression.

[bobanderson]

I can't remember the name of the rifling right now (CRS disease), but it wasn't Parker-Hale, as they didn't come into being until after the War of Yankee Aggression.

Got the same malady, Gil, but wasn't it called Alexander Henry rifling?

[Rob FreemanWBR]

Hobbler

You didn't list the Model 1855 as a choice.

If interested the most accurate .577 musket is the coveted Fayetteville.

Why? Because it's a great piece! Nice weight, spectacular balance, doesn't get flagged like a 3 bander in the wind and they're aesthetically pleasing to the eye.

Be advised - I'm extremely biased on this issue. What works for me might not hold true for you.

My two cents for what it's worth.

[R. C. Hubbard Jr]

hobbler,
This was the time of great experimentation as far as rifling and rifles go. I have not heard of matches separated by rifling twist. Most of the time they were given extra length on the string measure for so much weight of the set amount, usually 16 lbs. Rifling twist already were getting into the1/22 area and shooting slugs. Many in the 45 -50 cal. range. Most of the target guns were picket gun and were rifled in the area of 1/32.
I think but could be mistaken, that the Enfield was rifled on their sys. and the Alexander Henry rifling sys. was used in the english volunteer sys. of target rifles.(and later Martini's)
Personally I like my five groove 1863 Harprers Ferry pattern. (zouave) I always thought it shot better than the 3 & 7 grooves.
The difference between the Enfield and springfield is more likely a preference in rifle rather than true accuracy. I have had Enfields which others could shoot very well but they were not for me.


Bob

[hobbler]

I'm liable to be looking at a reline on a 1853 soon. Seeing as it'll be whatever diameter and twist and rifling geometry I'd care to try, well, there's much to ponder.

[Muley Gil]

Got the same malady, Gil, but wasn't it called Alexander Henry rifling?


I believe you are correct. I need to dig out Rhodes book on Enfields.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

I read (somewhere once upon a time) that in matches the shooters of 48" twist models had points deducted to level the field.
Wish I could find it... looking but no luck so far.

I believe the quote you may be thinking about is one from my brother Southron Sr (3002), of the 24th GA (N-SSA). See his post #17 at the link below:

http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/showthread.php/9410-Looking-to-buy-my-first-CW-musket?p=41151#post41151

As for accuracy among the list of Enfield patterns, besides the Pattern 1858 Navy Rifle, there is also the Pattern 1858-II or Bar-on-band rifle which had 3-groove rifling like the Pattern 1856 Army Rifle which was greatly hated by the troops in the field. Like Berry Benson's rifle, most of the Army rifles imported were of the Pattern 1856 with 3-groove rifling and sights graduated to 1100 yards. The Army rifles differed from the Navy rifles by having iron furniture while the Navy's were brass. None of these rifles were composed of any "steel" parts until the Pattern 1861 first incorporated a steel front sight post (per Roads' book).

As for the subsequent Pattern 1860 and 1861 Army rifles, there is no evidence on record of any of the Pattern 1860 or 1861 rifles were imported during the American conflict as the only rifles of these patterns made before 1863 were by the Liege trade exclusively under British government contract (and were all delivered into government stores by August 1863). The Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield did not begin making the Pattern 1860 until 1861, and the Pattern 1861 until 1862-63 hence why so many of these rifles were later converted to Snider. According to Roads, no Pattern 1858 Navy rifles were produced by RSAF until 1863-64 when a mere 2,280 were completed.

If by the "Pattern 1861" in your list you intended the Pattern 1861 Artillery Carbine, these were never imported to the United States. But the Pattern 1853 and 1858 Artillery Carbines were imported, and differ from the later production by their smaller leaf-type rear-sight graduated to 300 yards. A great number of these were also converted to Snider, like the example below:

https://www.joesalter.com/category/products/Volunteer-Snider-Artillery-Carbine-by-Yeomans-of-London

Lastly, while we compete in various events shooting from the shoulder at distance between 25 and 100 yards, members of the British volunteer corps were required to shoot all targets at 200 yards off the shoulder, and for targets at 500, 600, 800, and 1,000 yards from the knee, Hythe position, if not from the shoulder. This was not just required of all those competing for the Queen's Prize with their Whitworth rifles, but also all the other prize matches where volunteers competed with other pattern arms including smoothbore cavalry carbines, rifled artillery carbines, and breech-loaders. See Post #20 at the link below for the rules and regulations imposed on the volunteers competing at Wimbledon in "1863".

http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/showthread.php/9431-Pedersoli-2-band-vs-3-band-enfield/page2?highlight=wimbledon

[R. McAuley 3014V]

In terms of originals at any rate, I believe generally speaking I'd vote for the 1858 pattern Enfield. Heavy barrel, plus the Parker Hale rifling and bullet design were really well mated.

That said, none of these were target guns and while 1000 plus yard hits would be lethal, it was a case of volley fire, for which any were adequate. And, inside of say 300 yards, all could hit a man sized target. So in practice, I don't know as it was even an issue.

Jonk, have you ever shot (any rifle) at 1,000 yards? I can guarantee you that most any of these pattern British Enfields are quite capable of hitting a man at 1,000 yards. A standard NRA 1,000 yard high-power target has a X-ring that is ten inches in diameter, the whole black is 30-inches in diameter. Back in 1988, CWO Billy Atkins, coach of the All Army Reserve Service Rifle Team zeroed me in at 1,000 yards (into the X-ring) in just three shots, and I have hit the X-ring on many occasions. Below is another group who routinely compete at 200, 300, 600 and 1,000 with muzzle-loading rifles. Below is a view from the 1,000 yard line looking toward the butts at last week's LRML match held at Oak Ridge, TN, on 26-27 March 2015 where I watched a young man competing with one of Hoyt's new Kerr rifle barrels mated to a Pedersoli P/53. Before this match, the competitor had only shot 23 rounds through the barrel while establishing a 200-yard zero. I witnessed him in the 10 and X-rings several times from 200 to 600, and watched as he hit paper at 1,000 yards. Even as a novice, he would have had no problem hitting a man size target at that range.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii305/rmac1023/DSCF1539a_zpsd6ro6nwb.jpg

[jonk]

I have never personally shot past 600. I have pulled targets in the pits at Camp Perry at 1000 yards, so I know what can be done.

Notice I said 'for originals.' Shooting undersized balls with stock sights, while the construction of the gun was, I fully agree, capable of a 1000 yard shot onto a man sized target, the issue ammunition, stock sights, and soldier's ability most likley was not. There is a reason that snipers were issued special guns for shots of that range.

Hand me an 03, M1, M1A, or AR (even though I'm no fan of them personally) and yes, especially with a coach, and a proven load, I have no doubt that I'd hit the target at 1000. With the front stuffers, give me a gun that is tuned and with properly fitting ammo and a service load, I could probably do the same.

[R. C. Hubbard Jr]

Your not really comparing apples to apples here. The guns of the Volunteer corps were not all regular issue guns. Many were special built and rifled with A. Henry, kerr, Whitworth and other types of rifling, then built of the Enfield pattern.
I have a volunteer 1861 musketoon which has Henry rifling and a very neat single set trigger. Often they had improved rear sights on them as well.

Bob

[hobbler]

Had to look this up.
http://www.mlagb.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/201301_KerrRifle.pdf

Was pondering perhaps doing something like this with the P53.
Happy to read about it being done in the 1800's.
Thank you for the info gents.

[hobbler]

By the way, was the progressive depth rifling also more accurate because it assisted in the initial cutting of the paper patches on the Pritchett bullets to get a more reliable shedding of the patch?
Something I've noted is that shedding the patch consistently can be very important and sometimes difficult to achieve. The shallow rifling of the .69 Armisport can be a real doosie to work with in that regard.

[hobbler]

The reference I've found so far indicates about a .004"-.005" change in groove depth from breech to muzzle so it would appear that yes, the progressive depth rifling would definitely be doing the work of cutting those thicker paper patches.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Your not really comparing apples to apples here. The guns of the Volunteer corps were not all regular issue guns. Many were special built and rifled with A. Henry, kerr, Whitworth and other types of rifling, then built of the Enfield pattern.
I have a volunteer 1861 musketoon which has Henry rifling and a very neat single set trigger. Often they had improved rear sights on them as well.

Bob

Beside the "Any Rifle", only the Queen's and Albert Prize matches (like the Elcho Shield introduced 1862 between Scotland and England) were permitted to use small bore (.451 caliber) rifles like those made by Alex Henry, Kerr, Whitworth and other others. In the Queen's Prize, the Gun-maker's trials held earlier in the year (or even the year before) up until 1867 when they were discontinued, decided which maker's rifles would be used for the next year's Queen's Prize. Yes, "A Rigby rifle took the Queen's Prize at Wimbledon in 1865" but only because Whitworth's representative failed to appear at the trials, and Henry's rifles were disqualified for having oversized bores (just one two/1000ths out of gauge)! Rigby, being the only remaining entrant, won by default! Interestingly, the 1865 Queen's Prize was won by scores significantly lower than the winning scores of any year previous shot by a Whitworth rifle. In the 1866 gun-maker's trial, it was Rigby's turn to be disqualified, and the Birmingham Small Arms Company (under licensed to make the Whitworth) won the trials. In all the other volunteer matches, the regulation arm was mandatory, such as for the "Carbine prize", the "Five groove rifle prize", and one can only presume the "Enfield" prize, both the association cup and Wimbledon cup matches were exclusively limited to the use of the .577 Service Enfield.

[hobbler]

Does anyone know what .577 ammo was being used in the matches?
Surely not the standard service issue cartridges.

[R. C. Hubbard Jr]

This is may be the best online place to find this info. http://www.researchvault.co.uk/ There is also a forum that discusses shooting and the Kerr rifle project from when it started. I have considered replacing my Whitworth barrel with a Hoyt gain twist Kerr barrel.

Bob

[robertdeans72]

Does anyone know what .577 ammo was being used in the matches?
Surely not the standard service issue cartridges.

Hi there,

Surely they were!... There were devices that serious shooters used to double check the powder volume before pouring it into the muzzle. It fit over the muzzle and the cartridge was poured into it. The volume was checked to ensure that the boys at the Royal Laboratory had loaded the cartridge correctly. It was a stipulation in NRA competitions that service cartridges only were used..

The Cartridge had three cuts in the outer wrapper's inner layer and one through both, for a total of four. If you are interested in the Army (not NRA) Annual Musketry Qualification of the 1860s British Army, may I direct you here for a modern version (and somewhat abbreviated one due to lack of a 900yd range) but exemplary none-the-less...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAhZnO2ek1A&list=PLkOVIw4NSWVLumIbN13rz45E zre_B2ZMJ&index=17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAhZnO2ek1A&list=PLkOVIw4NSWVLumIbN13rz45Ezre_B2ZMJ&index=17

Cheers,
Rob

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Which model of .577 bore musket was considered to provide the best accuracy?
1853?
1858?
1861?
1863?
Other?

How come?

Although it was not otherwise mentioned above, the .577 (large-bore) Lancaster oval bore proved in trials to be more accurate at long range than the regulation Enfield. Below is a comparison of the mean deviations of the various small bore and large bore rifles at the ranges indicated, using service ammunition or special (non-service) ammunition. All shooting was from a mechanical rest.



Rifle

300 yds

500 yds

800 yds

1000 yds

1200 yds

Remarks



Lancaster large-bore

0.77

1.69

2.32

3.55

7.33

Service ammunition



Service Enfield

0.79

1.60

4.17

---**

---**

Service ammunition



Enfield small bore

0.41

0.70

1.50

2.11

3.85

Special ammunition



Whitworth small bore

0.40

0.82

1.61

2.43

3.78

Special ammunition



Whitworth large-bore*

0.47

0.68

2.27

3.0

4.59

Special ammunition



Whitworth large-bore

1.08

2.41

5.83

---

---

Service ammunition





* Special ammunition for large-bore Whitworth (26-bore) consisted of a 600-grain wood-filled hollow point cylindro-conical lubricated smooth-sided bullet, approx. 1.30” long, base cavity same as the regulation .577 service bullet (no wood plug), and 0.559” in dia. (being sized about half way between the earlier 0.568” and subsequent 0.550” dia. regulation bullet).

** The shooting of the .577 Service Enfield at ranges of 1,000 and 1,200 yards, having been found by previous trials to be uncertain and variable, the Committee did not consider it necessary for fire it at those extreme ranges in competition with the large-bore Whitworth rifle.

The Committee proceeded to ascertain whether the service ammunition could be fired with advantage from the Whitworth large-bore rifle. The Committee have been given to understand that the Secretary of State had no objection to the trial of such ammunition as Mr. Whitworth chose to submit, provided always, that if could, if required, be fired from the .577 Service Enfield, the Committee proceeded to fire the Whitworth special ammunition from the Enfield rifle but after 16 rounds at 300 yards itwas found necessary to stop the practice, in consequence of the wildness of the shooting, many of the bullets turning over in their flight.

[Extracts from the Reports and Proceedings of the Ordnance Select Committee, Vol. II, Jan to Dec 1864 (HMSO, 1865), pp210-13, 160]

[Southron Sr.]

In 1862 the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia conducted tests for accuracy on the various models of rifles and rifle-muskets then in use by the ANV.

It was discovered that while most Minie Rifles and Rifle-Muskets were roughly equally accurate out to 500 yards, the British Enfield Naval Rifles and the P-60 Army Short Rifle (both rifles used identical 33 inch "heavy" barrels with 5 lands and grooves, and a 1 in 48" twist) were accurate to 800-900 yards when imported British Enfield ammunition was used.

The above mentioned British rifles and ammunition were the preferred arms and ammo issued to Confederate sharpshooters when those arms and ammo was available.

Parker-Hale got it right when they made their replica Naval Rifles with the 5 land and groove barrels and the 1 in 48" twist. However, their barrels are made by the "Hammer Forging" method. Generally, barrels made with cut rifling are considered to be more accurate. My understanding is that Bobby Hoyt can make a replica Naval Rifle barrel by the cut rifling method.

[Dave Fox]

Early-on in this interesting thread the assertion was made that no M.1858 Enfield naval rifles were manufactured by the Royal Small Arms Factory before 1863-'64. I may be splitting hairs here, but recall something like 100 naval Enfields with cutlass bayonets entered the Confederacy aboard the steamship "Fingal" in 1861. If so, someone was producing this model at least that early. I once owned a naval rifle with the "JS & anchor" stamp in the wood below the trigger guard extension, this often believed to denote a Southern association, perhaps one of these arms. As I recall, dimly, it had a "Bond" stamped lockplate.

[Southron Sr.]

First of all, NO, then current production, Enfield Armory made Naval Rifles were ever sold to either the Union or Confederacy. Enfield was the British government owned armory and all the products of that armory were reserved for issue to the British military. The exception was when an Enfield made arm became obsolete in the British military, it was often sold as "surplus" to the gun trade.

However, there were many privately owned armories or even gunshops that produced Enfield pattern arms for not only sale to the British military, but to anyone who was willing to purchase their arms. These were the companies that the Union and Confederacy purchased their "Enfields" from.

Check out this Confederate owned Naval Rifle recently sold by the College Hill Armory:

https://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid=1918

[Southron Sr.]

To further illustrate the accuracy of the P-58 Naval Rifle and P-60 Army Short Rifle, in the 1860's the British NRA sponsored matches in the British Isles that were open to members of both the British Army and also the British militia.

The Naval Rifle and P-60 Army Short Rifle were acknowledged to be so accurate that 10% of their final score, in the matches, was automatically deducted so shooters using 3 band P-53 Enfields and other models of the Enfield "would be competing on a level playing field."