Thin skirted minie ball mould advice

[BoonieStomper]

Hello the forum! I have recently bought a Pedersoli 1861 Springfield. I have two minie ball moulds, both are Lymans. One is the 575213os, the other is the 577611. The bore mikes out at .578 -.579. I bought some pure lead from Rotometals. I have heard a good minie can have it's skirt bent by finger pressure, the problem is these moulds cast too thick of a skirt. I've seen pictures online of thinner skirted minie balls. What would younall recommend? I want to use the standard service charge of 60 grains so I can hunt deer w/ this gun. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Best regards, BoonieStomper

[Jim_Burgess_2078V]

When I first started skirmishing I acquired both the Lyman 575213OS and 575213NS (new style) molds. The new style bullet has a much thinner skirt. I modified the base plug on the new style mold to fit the old style blocks (just a matter of cutting a new groove for the retaining ring) and that gave me an old style bullet with a thin skirt, about 400 grains. It shot real well in my Zouave rifle.
Jim Burgess, 15th CVI

[Maillemaker]

I would not worry so much about what your fingers can do, but how the gun shoots them when you work up a load.

I've got a RCBS-500M bullet with a rather thick skirt. My my Whitacre-barreled P53 it shoots quite well with 48 grains of 3F Goex, but in my Pedersoli P58 it requires 60 grains 2F to work well.

I'd make up groups of 10 cartridges starting at 35 grains of 3F and move up in 5 grain increments to 50 grains. See what gives you the best group.

Steve

[ian45662]

I agree with what has already been said. Try them out first. If they dont do what you want my advice would be to do what has also been said above and look for a way to fit a core pin that will cast a thinner skirt. Me I like I thin skirted minie but I have never tried one with a thick skirt

[Muley Gil]

Hello the forum! I have recently bought a Pedersoli 1861 Springfield. I have two minie ball moulds, both are Lymans. One is the 575213os, the other is the 577611. The bore mikes out at .578 -.579. I bought some pure lead from Rotometals. I have heard a good minie can have it's skirt bent by finger pressure, the problem is these moulds cast too thick of a skirt. I've seen pictures online of thinner skirted minie balls. What would younall recommend? I want to use the standard service charge of 60 grains so I can hunt deer w/ this gun. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Best regards, BoonieStomper

You mentioned using a 60 grain load. I presume your state requires this as a minimum load. A number of skirmishers have taken whitetail deer using their regular target load, which could be anywhere from 38 to 55 grains of FFg or FFFg.

I really doubt your local game warden is going to be carrying around a powder scale. If you are really worried about that and your best load is less than 60 grains, carry a few plastic tubes loaded with 60 grains and a Minie to show to the warden. Just put your sighted in target load in a different colored tube.

[Eggman]

Hmmmmmmmm! Thin skirt ........ 60 grains ............ blown out skirt???? Better check, especially after a shot or two when resistance/pressure increases..

[Ibgreen]

I killed 2 deer this past season with the .577 moose Wilkerson over 70 grains 3F Goex. Whitaker barrel

[Eggman]

What I'm aiming at here is in the quest for that ideal bullet/powder arrangement, one other variable that can enter into the equation, and cause erratic flight, is skirts blowing out -- especially on thin walled minies. Look at the originals - very thick skirts ahead of those big 60-70 grain charges. The guys of the 1860s knew what they were doing.
So what I'm getting at, you may have found the optimum load/ optimum bullet/ optimum lube, et. etc., and still get an erratic shoot sequence. So I think one should always check out some of the rounds sent down range -- into something solft. In my mind, and based on my own experience - you better hit the "optimum" down around the 40 grain neighborhood, especially with the thin walls, for optimum RANGE consistency. We won't even start with the self'abuse feature of big charges.
I asked my wife if she thought this was a normal post. She said "It is a typical." She did not a say a typical what.

[BoonieStomper]

Look at the originals - very thick skirts ahead of those big 60-70 grain charges. The guys of the 1860s knew what they were doing.

Now THIS is interesting! See, I've never actually seen an original minie ball. I do know the original charge was around 60 grains, more or less, from my reading. I also had read that one MUST be able to deform the bullet skirt with only finger pressure, ot it would not work at all. Since I could not deform my minies w/ finger pressure, even w/ pure lead, I assumed I was doing something wrong. I saw pictures online of thin skirted minies , and thought that must be the solution, I must have bought the wrong mould!

So what you and Mr. Maillemaker are saying is a paradigm shift for me! I want to use the 60 grains, purely for historical reasons. So it's time to start casting and start working up a load! Thank you all for all the advice! I knew I came to the right place for answers! Best regards, BoonieStomper

[RaiderANV]

I hunt with my target load. Lyman 575213 thin skirt and 35grains of 3f Goex. Four years ago I hit a large doe in the side and it went through both shoulder bones and exited the other side at around 70 yards. Takes a lot to stop that 520 grains of lead once it's moving. The "historical" part is neat but why kill your shoulder. ;)

[R. McAuley 3014V]

In terms of skirt thickness, the .568" dia. British Prichett like Whitworth's design for his 26-gauge large-bore rifles had a skirt wall thickness of about 0.0795 (5/64"), and in the latter instance, this bullet was loaded as a cylindro-conical bullet which when fired the combustion gases expanded the hollow base (as well as the upper portions of the bullet) forcing it to fit the hexagonal polygonal rifling as the bullet traveled through the bore. With such forces causing the lead to change shape, whether in a hexagonal bore or one like inside a Springfield or Enfield, the softer the lead the easier this expansion is achieved, but if the skirt is so thin that you can bend it with thumb pressure alone risks having the thinner section of the skirt tearing away from its thicker forward part by these same expansive forces. Try whatever bullets you wish, but do recover some of the spent rounds you have fired and examine them closely to see how much they have compressed in length or expanded for their reshaping as you evaluate their performance (accuracy). If the skirt is so thin that it tears away from the forward portion of the bullet, other than your noticing an errant round while shooting, there isn't much to notice when this occurs. But you will quickly learn to avoid ever using thin skirted bullets once you have had to pull the breech plug to get the skirts out.

Back in the late 1970s, I had to replace the whole musket (a Navy Arms Mississippi) because it had a patent breech so we couldn't simply remove the breech-plug to reach the blown skirts (all three of them), and in the process of trying to extract the skirt with a worm, the worm scratched the edges of the lands enough to spoil the bore with a burr, such that even after we got the skirt out, I couldn't get another bullet past that spot in the bore. Having that type breech precluded relining, and buying a new replacement barrel cost almost as much as a new musket, the least expensive solution was to buy a new musket. Needless to say, I didn't buy another Mississippi.... I bought an Enfield with a removable breech-plug!

[Eggman]

Boonie-
A couple other thoughts. To me that .575 old style Lyman (as is) should be perfect once you get the load determined. Make sure you have well lubed bullets (rear end dipped or slabbed on generously - no lube piled up in the base). In your testing you might consider wiping between shots for maximum consistency.
I'm not familiar with Rotometals. When you say "pure lead" you give me the heebie jeebies. "Pure" lead won't cast. There must be impurities. I love X-ray room lead moderatedly skimmed. Not obsessive/compulsive skimmed.
You need to join one of our outfits. You sound like an assset.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Egg, You might want to be a little more wary about just where your scrap lead comes from, particularly any of the scrap derived from radioactive waste byproducts… or maybe not, it’s totally up to you… unless you fancy saving on your power bills this winter by glowing in the dark.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/9035.html
(http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/9035.html)
Over the past 40 years, I have occasionally heard lead sellers mention how they found some lead scrap that had been used for shielding in some nuclear plant, along with claims anent how clean it was and how they were willing to sell it real cheap! Although as soon as I heard this, not having a dosimeter, I make a quick exeunt, resisting any temptation to buy any lead from them. For good reason, because lead shielding is classified as “solid waste” when it is removed, regardless of its use or exposure, because the same drum or pallet of unused hazardous material becomes hazardous waste simply being declared surplus, and is subject to the same federal laws and treatment standards as applicable to other types of hazardous waste. But as the link makes reference, the same also applies to radioactively-contaminated lead-shielded phone cable and buried lead piping. But I am sure that no one here has bought any such lead that falls into this category, though you do need to be aware that such scrap lead does exist. Only you know who you can trust and who you cannot.

I also see that most of the comments that usually appearonly address lead hardness and/or various proposed methods for determining lead hardness, but folks seldom have explored the actual metallurgy or even what the commercial uses are for such products. I heard here not long ago someone had bought some lead pipe. Seamless pipe, for example, made from lead and lead alloys is readily fabricated by extrusion. Because of its corrosion resistance and flexibility, lead pipe finds many uses in the chemical industry as well as in plumbing and water distribution system, and is also commonly used for handling radioactive liquid wastes. It is made from either chemical lead or 6% antimonial lead.

Now there’s an interesting term, “chemical lead”. Chemical lead is refined lead with a residual copper content of 0.04 to 0.08% and residual silver content of 0.002to 0.02%, which is particularly desirable in the chemical industries. Copper-bearing lead provides greater corrosion protection comparable to that of chemical lead in most applications that require high corrosion resistance. “Common lead”, which contains higher amounts of silver and bismuth than does “corroding”lead, is used for battery oxide and general alloying. Most lead produced in the United States is pure (or corroding) lead (99.94% min Pb). Corroding lead exhibits the outstanding corrosion resistance typical of lead and its alloys, and is typically used in making pigments, lead oxides, and a wide variety ofother lead chemicals – not for bullets!

Because lead isvery soft and ductile, it is normally used commercially in lead alloys. Antimony, tin, arsenic, and calcium are the most common alloying elements. Antimony generally is used to give greater hardness and strength, as in storage battery grids, sheet, pipe, and castings. Antimony contents of lead-antimony alloys can range from 0.5 to 25%, but they are usually 2 to 5%, and is commonly encountered as plumber’s ingot lead. Arsenical lead is used for cable sheathing, which I notice is often advertized for sale to people who make bullets, though you probably should be very wary of it. Arsenic is often used to harden lead-antimony alloys and is essential to the production of round dropped shot (another source of bullet-making lead that some people use). But don’t lick your fingers after handling it— it’s not from KFC and may just ruin your whole day!

The largest useof lead is in the manufacture of lead-acid storage batteries. These batteries consist of a series of grid plates made from either cast or wrought calcium lead or antimonial lead that is pasted with a mixture of lead oxides and immersed in sulfuric acid. Lead sheet is a construction material of major importance in chemical and related industries because lead resists attack by awide range of chemicals. Lead sheet is also used in building construction forroofing and flashing, shower pans, flooring, x-ray and gamma-ray protection,and vibration damping and soundproofing. Sheet for use in chemical industries and building construction is made from either pure lead or 6% antimonial lead. Calcium-lead and calcium-lead-tin alloys are also suitable for many of these applications. Calcium-lead and lead-selenium alloys are also used in the battery industry because they offer dramatically improved performance with regards to watering cycles and maintenance than older high antimony designs.

Lead solder in the tin-lead system is the most widely used of all joining materials. The low melting range of tin-lead solders makes them ideal for joining most metals by convenient heating methods with little or no damage to heat-sensitive parts. Tin-lead solder alloys can be obtained with melting temperatures as low as 182 °C and as high as 315 °C. Except for the pure metals and the eutectic solder with 63% Sn and 37% Pb, all tin-lead solder alloys melt within a temperature range that varies according tothe alloy composition. Large quantities of lead are used in ammunition for both military and sporting purposes. Alloys used for shot contain up to 8% antimony (Sb) and 2% arsenic (As); those used forbullet cores in swaging applications contain up to 2% antimony.

Lead foil, generally known as composition metal foil,is usually made by rolling a sandwich of lead between two sheets of tin, producing a tight union of the metals.

Fusible Alloys, that is, lead alloyed with tin, bismuth, cadmium, indium, or other elements, either alone or in combination, forms alloys with particularly low melting points. Some of these alloys, which melt at temperatures even lower than the boiling point of water, are referred to as fusible alloys. Anodes made of lead alloys are used in the electrowinning and plating of metals such as manganese, copper, nickel, and zinc. Rolled lead-calcium-tin and lead-silver alloys are the preferred anode materials in these applications, because of their high resistance to corrosion in the sulfuric acid used in electrolytic solutions. Lead anodes also have high resistance to corrosion by seawater, making them economical to use in systems for the cathodic protection of ships and offshore rigs. In short, lead isused in a great number of applications, and is alloyed with various other chemicals and metals for specific purposes. So rather than just buying lead because its a "good deal", you might want to find out exactly where it came from before you put it in your mouth on the firing line!

[Ben Nevlezer]

Holy crap!!! I'm with you Egg. Who cares if your minies glow in the dark. If they are soft, they will hit where aimed. And, oh by the way, lead is used in radioactive settings because it is to dense to be penetrated which also means it will not absorb what it is containing. Damn im glad I made it thru 6th grade chemistry! It seems like the guys that have a good supply of good lead have the best results and the other guys seem to have all the reasons for which our good lead isn't good. X ray, powerplant, lead pipe, sheet lead, whatever, if its pure and soft, SHOOT IT!!!

[Eggman]

I think the key here is not to snort or eat the lead.

[Ron/The Old Reb]

Wow!
Now I remember why Chemistry was not my favorite subject in high school.:confused:

[Eggman]

Sheriff Bart - "A man drinks whiskey like that and don't eat, he's gonna die!"
Jim - "When?"

[Maillemaker]

before you put it in your mouth on the firing line!

I still see people put bullets in their mouths at skirmishes and it makes me cringe.

I hope all of you get annual physicals (with many insurance policies they are "free") and when you get your blood work done getting your lead levels checked is as simple as another check box by your doctor on the blood lab form. Nothing to it.

I started getting mine checked 3 years ago - I've been casting about 5 years now. Levels have always come back normal. But I don't put any lead in my mouth.

Steve

[Eggman]

I still see people put bullets in their mouths at skirmishes and it makes me cringe.

Steve
Yeah I'm an old bullet biter (admittedly probably on borrowed time). I got a smoothbore a year ago and used the same biter system until I accidentally swallowed one of the .69 balls, so I can see your point about he danger of putting lead objects in your mouth. On behalf of the bullet biter fringe cringe inducers, I apologize.

[RaiderANV]

.........l I accidentally swallowed one of the .69 balls,........

Wondering. .......if one ate Mexican before said swallowing accident.......would the toilet get shot up? Eggs???

[george7542]

The Friday night buffet at the butchers block might have the same effect

[Eggman]

Wondering. .......if one ate Mexican before said swallowing accident.......would the toilet get shot up? Eggs???

Yeah what's interesting Pat is the doctor I saw said this malady is specifically covered in the Johns/Hopkins Wounds and Mutilations Handbook. The treatment is very specific, a Taco Bell Burito Supreme. The manual says the Flaming Guatalahara Extraordinaire w/refried beans will crack the toilet bowl.

[Muley Gil]

Yeah I'm an old bullet biter (admittedly probably on borrowed time). I got a smoothbore a year ago and used the same biter system until I accidentally swallowed one of the .69 balls, so I can see your point about he danger of putting lead objects in your mouth. On behalf of the bullet biter fringe cringe inducers, I apologize.

Well, you know what they say, all things must pass!