Starr carbine serial numbers

[j.howardcycles]

Hey All;
I am trying my best to find out info on Starr carbines. But am having vary little luck. I know they made 20,601 of the percussion carbines and that they made 5,002 of the cartridge model. So the total for the two would be 25603. Now one of my new toys is a cartridge model with serial number 30105 . So I have been trying to find out what did Starr start their serial numbers at. Also when they started the cartridge model did they just continue with the serial numbers from the percussion models. I would also like to find out if my cartridge model is one of the ones that had been sent to the Winchester Ordnance Depot in Va. in March of 1865. Any help will be greatly appreciated !!http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

[RaiderANV]

I can hear God now telling St. Pete to fetch Thy Great Book.........

[Eggman]

Hey All;
I am trying my best to find out info on Starr carbines. But am having vary little luck. I know they made 20,601 of the percussion carbines and that they made 5,002 of the cartridge model. So the total for the two would be 25603. Now one of my new toys is a cartridge model with serial number 30105 . So I have been trying to find out what did Starr start their serial numbers at. Also when they started the cartridge model did they just continue with the serial numbers from the percussion models. I would also like to find out if my cartridge model is one of the ones that had been sent to the Winchester Ordnance Depot in Va. in March of 1865. Any help will be greatly appreciated !!http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

"...what did Starr start their serial numbers at." As the professor said, never end a sentence with a preposition (at). It should be "... what did Starr start their serial numbers at, a--hole."

[John Holland]

I see the onset of Cabinitis Fervous!

[RaiderANV]

"...what did Starr start their serial numbers at." As the professor said, never end a sentence with a preposition (at). It should be "... what did Starr start their serial numbers at, a--hole."

Eggs....he owns ah starr. Whatdaya expect......proper Southron English????

[j.howardcycles]

I see that two of the members the Peanut Gallery have chimed in. http://www.n-ssa.org/vbforum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif So being that the bad jokes have been said . How about putting that brain power to work on my questions please .

[RaiderANV]

Do a search on here and find Two Flints......he has all four volumes of the Springfield Research books that lists most of the known serial numbers. That said.....unless you find that exact number listed to a unit and soldier you'll never know for sure. They didnt exactly ship out any carbine grouped by serial number. A unit with 300 guys in it could span a 1000 serial numbers or more.

[Eggman]

As an aside, I received this email yesterday:
Dear Mr. Eggman,
Please advise Mr. Cycles that neither you nor your friend Mr. Raider ANV have ever been listed on any of our Peanut Gallery rosters.
Signed,
Howdy
Buffalo Bob
Claribell the Clown
Princess Summerfall Winterspring

[Eggman]

Aside #2
If you can't raise two flints here I'm sure you can on the Spencer Forum which he runs.

[Jim Wimbish, 10395]

John,

I have a metallic cartridge Starr, S/N 30382 which is pretty close to yours.

[Curt]

Hallo!

IMHO, it would appear Starr just ran the serial numbers.

Trivia:

During the January 1865 carbine tests for a new carbine, Starr paraded out their ne3 cartridge model. Ordnance people were mildly impressed, and on February 21 ordered 3,000 to be delivered on or before April 10, 1865. Starting in March, 2001 were delivered, and the last 1,000 sneeking under the wire and being shipped on April 10th. On April 11th, Starr received a new contract for 2,000 more. They were delivered in May 1865.
Starr went out of business in 1867, a victim of the Sharps.

Just for fun...

Looking at the listing of (known/recorded) Starr carbines, the I see one was issued June 1 1864 to Company "M" 1st NY Cav with a serial number of 30,773. Being before rimfire cartridge production it had to be percussion.

The highest SN's on the list were between 32,629 and 39,584, but with 1864 issuance dates. Which makes no sense as the serial numbers would seem to be in the post March 1865 production date but yet they are issued in 1864.

Dunno.

Curt

[R. McAuley 3014V]

I was about to say (in a post) that like Spencer Repeating Arms, the Starr Arms Company (which closed its doors in 1867) probably maintained two separate sets of serializations, one for revolvers and another for carbines, and may have elected to numerically skip over certain quantities based on other contracts made but ultimately not realized.

If you were to place yourself in such a position in having to decide on a contract for 500 carbines, say, for example, to the State of Ohio, versus maintaining a numerical count on your 20,000 piece government contract, what would you do? Would you merely take out 500 pieces from the larger government contract and make an overrun to accommodate the extra 500, or would you have “projected” forward numerically to begin the serialization for the 500 ahead of where you anticipated your extant contracts reaching?

As Curt suggests, if the highest SN's on the list were between 32,629 and 39,584, but with 1864 issuance dates, might the 5,001 metallic cartridge carbines have come out from the regular government contract production rather than being separate manufacture? And how much difference was there between the percussion model and cartridge model parts. Could have the latter been produced from among the government rejects, or like Spencer, did Starr perhaps buy back some of their earlier percussion carbines for conversion? This could perhaps explain some of the apparent inconsistencies in the serialization.

Browning, for example, only serializes their products on the day it ships from the factory. Indeed, at Browning, a rifle may have sat on a workman’s bench for want of a part or two for say five years before it was finished and shipped, so though the serial number may indicate the date is was shipped from the factory, does not invariably mean that was the same date it was made. And much may have been the same at Starr as was with Spencer? Spencer, it seems, began their serialization over again for each model produced. But the serialization was not a government contractual requirement for identification purposes but a business inventory control method.

Unless Starr’s records were purposefully destroyed, they may yet survive, most likely still in the possession of the descendants of one or more of the officers or trustees of the defunct firm? I have stumbled onto records that historians for the past two centuries had believed were lost or destroyed about 1770 when the estate had broke up, when, in fact, the records had instead been placed in with the estate papers of an in-law for safe-keeping in 1721. The papers sat there for more than 275 years undisturbed by anyone until I found a 1735 letter making reference to them.

[j.howardcycles]

Hey All;
WOW, I never would have thought about most of what has been suggested here. Skipping serial numbers did not cross my mind.
Raider, I will see if I can find Two Flints . Maybe I will get lucky and he will find something on it. Thanks for all the ideas and help on this .

[R. McAuley 3014V]

As another author described the changes in the arm to fire the metallic cartridge, introduced a new breech-block, hammer, and barrel chambered to take the new .56-.50 Spencer cartridge. So it may well be that rather than requiring the separate manufacture of a new model carbine, Starr may have found a way to convert a number of his earlier production over to the new cartridge model, such that the serialization involved fewer numbers of carbines than was previously thought. As it seems that the serial numbers reached as high as perhaps 40,000 yet Starr's known contracts fail to account for such a number, though it has been suggested that Starr had an overrun of some 600 (beyond the 20,000 contracted and two cut-away specimens) ultimately delivered by November 1864, how many of the percussion model were rejected?

[Blair]

John G,

You will find Two Flints at cascity.com. in the "Spencer Shooting Society".

If you have trouble connecting with him... let me know here, and I will pass on his full name and email through a PM.
I do not know how complete the Star line of SS#'s are within those records.
I hope this helps.
My best,
Blair

[j.howardcycles]

As another author described the changes in the arm to fire the metallic cartridge, introduced a new breech-block, hammer, and barrel chambered to take the new .56-.50 Spencer cartridge. So it may well be that rather than requiring the separate manufacture of a new model carbine, Starr may have found a way to convert a number of his earlier production over to the new cartridge model, such that the serialization involved fewer numbers of carbines than was previously thought. As it seems that the serial numbers reached as high as perhaps 40,000 yet Starr's known contracts fail to account for such a number, though it has been suggested that Starr had an overrun of some 600 (beyond the 20,000 contracted and two cut-away specimens) ultimately delivered by November 1864, how many of the percussion model were rejected?

Thanks Richard;
Starr did not convert the percussion carbines to metallic cartridge. But made them new. The cartridge models use Starr`s own 52 cartridge. It falls in between the spencer 56/56 and 56/50 cartridges in size. I found this out from doing a casting of the chamber and slugging the bore. Then checking with the cartridges of the world book. The bullet and cartridge dimensions are vastly different then spencer`s rounds. I have set this one up for centerfire . I had to make a set of dies up for it . Then I bought one of moose`s sharps molds in .525. Then I opened it up to .533 .It shoots one hole at fifty yards . But still have not set it up yet for 100 yards. Fun to shoot just like may percussion model.

Thanks for the info that you provided . It all helps me out.

[j.howardcycles]

John G,

You will find Two Flints at cascity.com. in the "Spencer Shooting Society".

If you have trouble connecting with him... let me know here, and I will pass on his full name and email through a PM.
I do not know how complete the Star line of SS#'s are within those records.
I hope this helps.
My best,
Blair

Blair;
I sent Two Flints a PM using our board here. I hope he will get it and be able to help.

[j.howardcycles]

He All;
Went over to the Spencer Shooting Society site and posted there. Two flints has been helping me out as much as he can. No records in the SRS books for my Starr cartridge model. But he tells me that not much info on Starr carbines in them. What I have found is that all the cartridge model carbines I am seeing are in the 30,000 block =lowest 30105 to 38363. So it looks as Starr started the cartridge models at 30,000 and went up . Two Flints is thinking along those lines also. Here are the numbers I have to this point. 30105,30328,30382,30951,31969a,32061a,323?3a,32909 a,33528a,36107,37602,37684,37757,38363
If anyone knows a number that is not posted here please let me know.
Thanks
John
C.S.A.

[Blair]

John,

I see you are a member of the 1st. Md. Cav. CSA
My G Gandefather was a member of Co. A 1st. MD. Cav. He was captured at Capon Bridge W.VA. in May of 1863. Ended up being sent to Point Lookout, MD where he enlisted into Co, F, 1st. USVI.
My best,
Blair

[j.howardcycles]

Knowing how bad things had been at Point Lookout. I can see why he changed sides. Your Grandfather probably got there took one look at all the graves and dying men then when they gave him the choice between dying there or switching sides . He figured that he would take his chances on the battlefield.

[John Holland]

John, I just contacted a friend who has a Starr Cartridge Carbine and asked for his serial number. He said as long as I kept him anonymous he didn't mind, the number is 31019.

[j.howardcycles]

Thanks John;
I now have 22 Starr cartridge carbine serial numbers with the addition of this new number. I know that is not allot . But It gives me a good idea of the number range. The lowest one I have is 30105 and the highest is 38666. I would like to get a many as possible . Then start to compile them. Then see if it is as it looks. That the serial numbers are all in the 30,000 range. But in blocks . Not just one straight numerical sequence . This has turned into a challenging hunt and I like it !

Thanks again
John
C.S.A.

[John Holland]

John, if I can find any other numbers I will surely share them with you!

[RaiderANV]

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/reply/125060/Re-Starr-carbine
This link bas a lot of info AND. .......Down the hread several more serial numbers you don't have yet


http://www.springsgov.com/museum/fmi/xsl/record_detail.xsl?-db=cspmcollection&-lay=CGS&-recid=1428&-find=


http://www.icollector.com/Two-Civil-War-Carbines-A-Starr-Civil-War-Single-Shot-Cartridge-Carbine_i11705828


http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=14580,DATABASE=objects

Edited to correct top link

[R. McAuley 3014V]

There must be another convention with the serialization that is not readily apparent. For the serial numbers identified by Two Flints (i.e. 30105, 30328, 30382, 30951, 31969a, 32061a, 323?3a, 32909 a, 33528a, 36107, 37602, 37684, 37757, 38363) seemingly implies that perhaps upwards of 10,000 cartridge carbines may have been produced, provided the true serial number range may actually have extended from 30,000 to 40,000. At least 6,002 are accounted just between 30105 and 36107, or some 2,000 more than are known to have been purchased by the federal government. Whisker, Yantz & Hartzler provide the purchase dates and reported quantities for those dates, which for the two contracts for cartridge carbines (2/21/65 for 3,000, and 4/11/65 for 2,000 more) seem to correspond to three purchased/delivery dates (3/9/65, 3/28/65 & 4/10/65) for the first contract; and the dates (5/10/65 and 5/25/65) for the second, plus one sample carbine. What no one has till now suggested is that Starr probably produced more than merely the 5001 carbines sold to the federal government, and likely the balance were either by private purchase or state purchase, just like with the sales for Spencers and Henrys.

[RaiderANV]

The top link of my post above yours Richard is to Starr serial number 38,666.
So that really boosts the numbers made providing they actually serialized them consecutively? ??

[j.howardcycles]

Thanks John and Raider.
Raider I have not checked the link`s out yet . But I have found a few more numbers the last few nights. One was the 38666. Richard , the serial numbers posted here and on SSS were not found by Two Flints . But by myself. I posted them over at SSS for Two Flints to look at. He has not posted anything on them yet. The highest number I have found is the same as Raider`s 38666. The lowest serial numbered carbines {those closest to 30,000} look to have the U.S. government cartouches on them. The higher numbered carbines do not. They ether have nothing on them or have Canadian or French markings. To me it is starting to look like the first 5002 carbines for the U.S. government in 1865 are the 30,000-35,002. Then those at 35,003 and up are the post U.S. government contract. Those are most likely the ones that we see other government cartouches on. Now that being said . I have seen carbines with U.S. and foreign cartouches on them. But they are in the lowest serial number ranges . Seeing that Starr was still making firearms until 1867 . This may account for the higher serial numbered carbines and those with foreign cartouches . But no U.S. cartouches.

[R. C. Hubbard Jr]

It is also possible that Bannerman or someone bought the last of Star's inventory and sold them to France in1870's as the Remington split breech guns were.

RCHJr.

[j.howardcycles]

Raider;
I check out the links that you provided . I had already been to them over the last few evenings and collected the numbers . what I used for the net searches was Bing ,Google and Yahoo. I found some on each one that the others did not show. I have 22 sets now. If I can get 40-50 total . I may be able to see more into the serial number ranges and know what Starr was doing with them. I have not started to look through some of my old auction house catalogs and books to see if and numbers come from those that I do not have. Nothing yet. But still more stuff to look at.

[STARR1858]

Hi Folks,
I have 2 Starr Carbines in my collection - Percussion (9089 ) & Rimfire (34689 - Purchased LV Antique Gun Show 2015)
The Percussion model serial number is listed as 9089, however on the falling block the serial number is proceeded by
a "Lazy" 1 (the number one on its side) and the under barrel serial number is stamped as 1 over 9089 ( ie the number one with 9089 underneath it ). Can anyone explain the different way my Percussion Carbine is numbered.

STARR1858 - Australia

[Eggman]

and the under barrel serial number is stamped as 1 over 9089 ( ie the number one with 9089 underneath it ). Can anyone explain the different way my Percussion Carbine is numbered.

STARR1858 - Australia[/QUOTE]

Does it strike anyone here as ironic that an Aussie would ask about the location of a serial number on a gun being "down under?"