most accurate revolver

[Dr. Doug]

Newbie on this board, so sorry if these questions have been dealt with previously.

I'm in the market for a new A/I CW revolver replica to shoot in local competition.

I'm leaning toward an 1858 New Army. Who makes the most accurate copy out of the box?

Or is there a better choice than the '58?

Thanks,
Doug

[Curt]

Hallo!

Ask a hundred lads, get 150 opinions.. :) :)

Lads tend to fall into "camps" and get divided between the advantages of the Colt versus Remington revolvers. (I love the Colt M1860 Army, M1861 Navy, and M1862 Pocket/Poipce) but occasionally shoot the Remington M1863 "New Model" Army or the non-martial Rogers & Spencer revolver.)

And one would might would need to clarify or explain "accurate?" (Meaning "accurate" in terms of its faithfulness to originals.. or "accurate" in terms of its ability to shoot consistent tight groups?)

Italian reproductions vary, in terms of Quality Control when it comes to fit, finish, function, and POI target accuracy. "Higher" end Italian pieces like say Uberti or Uberti made Cimarron Firearms versions are "better" and one NUG gets what one pays for. Versus low end, or middle range like Pietta.

I am biased, and would recommend the old Colt Black Powder "Second Generation" (in brief Italian parts assembled and finished to Colt 'standards' by Iver Johnson). But it "depends' on how serious or casual a plinker to deadly target competitor one wants to be. Or living historian for that matter too.

I would recommend going out with some lads and trying the different makes BEFORE buying... ;) :)

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[Joe Plakis, 9575V]

Curt is correct is his statements

I am in the camp that 6 revolvers are best: In no particular order
1858 Remington Army, 1851 Colt Navy, 1863 Starr (Single Action), Rogers and Spencer, LeMat, and lastly the hand cannon Colt Walker.....

All six make for good projectiles when I have a shortage of stones to throw..... because I can't shoot the damn things......:p

But in all honesty it is about a good feel in the hand, and then getting lucky and finding the right load and one that is not a to messed up repo... Because I have seen some crappy Repos.... My Starr had a barrel size of .454 and camber size of .440.... needless to say it was worse than throwing rocks.....

[Mike McDaniel]

The 1858 Remington dominates at the highest level of competition. The only significant rival are the Rogers & Spencer repros.

At this time, the old standbys of the Hege/Feinwerkbau Remington and Feinwerkbau Rogers & Spencer are no longer made...and it'll be damned hard to find one secondhand. Your choices are:
a. Pedersoli Remington
b. Pietta Shooter's Model Remington
c. Custom-tuned revolver. Rob Lewis is well thought of.

[jonk]

If I were serious about shooting revolver, rather than just shooting it at nationals and being a warm body to fill the line, honestly... I'd get the cheapest copy I could, then take it to Rob Lewis or Charlie Hahn, both of whom accurize the things, and get a new barrel right off, with new sights as well... they will also true up the cylinder, making sure all chambers are the same diameter and larger than the bore of the gun, and fit it so it is snug to the forcing cone.

Getting a good loading stand is also a must, wherein you load the cylinder outside of the revolver. It saves wear and tear on the revolver itself, and ensures a consistant seating depth and pressure.

Personally I shoot a Santa Barbara Remington 1863, also long since not made. It's spoken highly of as one of the better repros and will shoot a 2" group at 25 yards from a rest. That doesn't mean I can shoot it.

Some of it has to do with the grips. I have shot a friend's Rogers and Spencer and the larger bird's head grips make for a much more stable platform shooting.

[Dr. Doug]

Thank you for your input- it's exactly what I was looking for. I have no doubt that each individual shooter's opinion will vary! I see that in muzzleloading, at pin shoots, in 3 gun competition, and in archery. Probably every other sport as well, but those are the events have the most experience with.

By 'accurate', I mean small groups on paper. Sorry I didn't define that earlier. 'Only accurate guns are interesting', as Col. Whelen said.

The repo revolvers I've shot haven't been of the best quality. Comparing them with my Old Army has been disappointing. That's why I thought I'd solicit your sage advice before spending money.

I'm not opposed to sending a new revolver to a gunsmith, but I'd rather have it ready to go right out of the box. I had an early Ruger Vaquero that had horrible chamber mouths and some minor timing problems. It became a shooter after a trip to the 'smith, but I spend a good deal of range time and powder to convince myself that the problem was truly in front of the grips rather than behind them.

Any more thought would be appreciated!
Doug

[ian45662]

Out of the box pedersoli probably makes the best however a friend of mine just picked up a uberti 1863 new army which is the remington and it will shoot pretty dag on good. Good enough to shoot clay birds at 25 yards anyways. I picked up a pietta and sent it straight to charlie hahn and now it will shoot a 6 shot group about the size of a bottle cap from 25 yards off the bench. I will upload a picture of a group I shot with it from the bench when I was adjusting the sights. It is the most accurate handgun I have ever shot.

[Dr. Doug]

Ian- nice group.

Would you mind sharing your loading technique? With my Old Army I use 3f/Cream of Wheat/lubed felt wad/ball. That particular gun will consistently shoot in the 90s (offhand) from the 25 yard line with that combination.

I've had good success with Pedersoli long guns (flint and percussion) but haven't laid eyes on their handguns.

Another question just came to mind- is there any difference in accuracy between stainless and blued variations of the same model?

Thanks again for your input.
Doug

[ian45662]

That load is 22 grains of goex oldE 3F 2 scoops of cream of wheat from a .7cc lee dipper. 457 roundball and spg bullet lube on top of all that. As far as difference between stainless and otherwise I have no idea

[P.Altland]

Is that one of Charlie's gain twist barrels or straight twist?

[Muley Gil]

"straight twist"

Is that one of those terms like "jumbo shrimp"?????? :(

[ian45662]

Gain twist

[P.Altland]

I've been thinking of having Charlie do one of my revolvers. Have a teammate who had one of his done. Been waiting for feedback, but he hasn't had time to work up a load. Everyone else is doing straight twist barrels of 1:16 or 1:18. Having trouble deciding if there is an advantage to gain twist.

[ian45662]

Not sure if there is an advantage or or not. I have a ball accuracy gun with a constant twist so I just wanted to try something different. I have never really say down and benched the ball gun like I did with the Hahn gun. Maybe that would be a good project to do this weekend. I will say I don't see how the ball gun could shoot any better but maybe it would shoot as good

[pastore]

Not sure if there is an advantage or or not. I have a ball accuracy gun with a constant twist so I just wanted to try something different. I have never really say down and benched the ball gun like I did with the Hahn gun. Maybe that would be a good project to do this weekend. I will say I don't see how the ball gun could shoot any better but maybe it would shoot as good
Tom provided a test target with each of his guns. He guaranteed his guns would hold X ring groups at 25 yards and 10 ring at 50 yards.

[Maillemaker]

It's a small sample size, but I'm not horribly impressed with the Italian revolvers I have bought.

I have 2 brass-framed "1851 Navy" revolvers that I bought years before I found the N-SSA in blister starter packs at Walmart for my father and myself. They are Pietta. The barrel is not rotated to true 90 and so the top flat is not horizontal relative to the frame, and as a consequence the sights were off. In addition I had problems with some of the parts being too soft; I had to dress them with a file and re-heat-treat them. Not legal for N-SSA shooting so they just sit on the wall now.

I bought a Pietta New Army Remington and it shoots OK, but had a looooooong trigger pull. I did some careful file work on the tumbler to shorten the disengagement.

I bought a Pietta 1860 Army and have never gotten decent groups out of it.

I bought an Uberti Colt Walker and while I had to replace the front site and grind it at quite a severe angle to get the correct point of aim, it is tremendously accurate with 45 grains 3F Goex and cream of wheat filler. I have shot a man-sized steel target at about 115 yards with it off single hand.

Again, very small sample size, but I'm impressed with the Ubertis now.

It's my opinion that the makers of these guns understand that most people buy them on a whim due to their low cost, shoot them a few times, discover how dirty and cumbersome they are compared to modern guns, and then they sit on a shelf for the rest of their lives. So they do not put the expense into quality steel and heat treatment into them because they know most of these are only shot a hundred times or so. As opposed to a modern revolver that can be expected to shoot several hundred rounds. Take a look at the cylinder stops, channels, and hand on a modern Smith and Wesson 629 after being shot hundreds of times and notice how all the parts look just fine. Take a look at the cylinder stops, channels, and hand on a typical Italian repro after a hundred shots and see how they are all chewed up already - it's because of poor steel and poor heat treatment.

I'd like to try one of the Pedersoli Remington revolvers but I don't know anyone who sells them yet.

Steve

[Mike McDaniel]

Yup. Try http://www.cherrys.com/ped_pist.htm to order, or e-mail the Italian Firearms Group at Justin@ItalianFirearmsGroup.com

[Maillemaker]

(whistle) $945 shipped.

Hopefully Cabela's will pick these up.

Steve

[ian45662]

The ball gun will throw x and 10s all day. I don't do it justice as a shooter. If I get a chance this weekend I will do a side by side on it and the Hahn more for the purpose of a definitive test from constant twist vs gain twist. I will shoot from a bench and post my results.

[Lou Lou Lou]

For what it is worth, Rob Lewis (Tri L) does a complete accurizing job on Remington's. Redrills cylinder etc.

[Maillemaker]

Who are the current people in business doing revolver accurizing? I would be nice to have a list with contact information.

I have heard:

Charlie Hahn (Hahn Machine Works)
http://hahnmachineworks.com/

Rob Lewis (Tri-L)
(contact info unknown)

Are there others? Any contact information for Rob Lewis?

Steve

[Blair]

Maillemaker,

Justin Dodd at IFG is the primary importer for Pedersoli. However, IFG sells to dealers
Dixie Gun Works, Taylor's & Co and Cabela's are also major importers and deal directly with the public. So to answer your question... yes, Cabela's will have them, especially now that IFG is up, running and taking orders.

I hope this helps.
My best,
Blair

[Mike McDaniel]

I'm not so sure they will. The big-box sellers concentrate on the low end of the market. The Italians are capable of making a superb gun, but frequently are working to a price point. And American shooters have an attitude that a muzzle-loading "is supposed" to cost around $300-400. If you want Olympic target pistol quality, you pay a corresponding price. And a $1K Pedersoli revolver will need far less work to make it a medal-winner than a $1K 1911 being turned into a good bullseye gun.

[Maillemaker]

Well, Cabela's already carries a fair number of Pedersoli items, so who knows. I know Cabela's (or maybe it was Midway?) was carrying those souped-up Pietta "Target Model" guns for $700+ at one time.

One would hope that they shoot well out of the box, but I'm not sure I want to be the one to experiment first. :)

Steve

[ian45662]

What kind of groups can be expected from a tri-L guns?