Kevlar curtain bullet catcher?

[Maillemaker]

A couple of years ago, I made myself a "bullet bucket (http://4thla.com/articles/bullet_bucket/bullet_bucket.htm)". It's a 5-gallon bucket full of chipped rubber mulch with some sheet metal in the bottom. It lets me catch and recycle my lead while target shooting. It has worked pretty well. The problems are that you have to be able to actually hit the mouth of the bucket, and the bucket, due to weight, ends up pretty low to the ground (I usually set it on top of an up-ended bucket). It's also rather heavy to lug around and set up.

So I was thinking about another approach. I know that in bullet resistant cars they often hang a weighted kevlar curtain inside the door, so that when a bullet passes through the steel of the door it then hits the kevlar curtain, which is weighted at the bottom, which then "billows" up as the bullet hits it, absorbing the energy before falling back down into place.

I wonder if this might work well for our relatively soft, large, slow lead bullets from our muzzle loaders.

I was envisioning buying some Kevlar fabric, perhaps multiple layers, and hanging it from a wood curtain rod supported by uprights. The bottom of the curtain would terminate in a loop in which another wood curtain rod could be inserted, for weight. This could be hung at any usual height behind a usual paper target. When fired into, I would hope that the Kevlar curtain would billow around the bullet and then fall back into its relaxed state, with the bullet falling to the ground in front of it.

This system would have the advantage of being pretty portable - you just roll up the curtain around its poles and off you go.

What do you think of this idea?

Steve

[Muley Gil]

In theory, it sounds like a great idea. However, I THINK muliple hits would evenually weaken the Kevlar to the point where it would fail. Whenever a police vest is struck, even once, it is replaced.

Not sure how long the Kevlar could be used before it was too weakened to be safely used. A lot depends on the cost vs life of the curtain.

[Lou Lou Lou]

Will they sell it to a civilian? It may be a controlled purchase

[george7542]

Yes repeated hits will weaken it to the point of failure. A friend and I had taken a standard issue infantry helmet and a 9mm glock after about 15 rounds we got the first failure.

[Maillemaker]

Yes you can buy Kevlar fabric online from places like eBay and others all day long.

I don't doubt that after repeated strikes it would eventually fail, but I would think that with the relative low velocity and the relatively large surface area of the bullet, also combined with the soft lead could make it viable.

Especially if you essentially made a large "loop" of the fabric (think the old-timey hand drying towel machines). This doubles up the layers and you can rotate the loop from time to time to even up the wear.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

A couple of years ago, I made myself a "bullet bucket (http://4thla.com/articles/bullet_bucket/bullet_bucket.htm)". It's a 5-gallon bucket full of chipped rubber mulch with some sheet metal in the bottom. It lets me catch and recycle my lead while target shooting. It has worked pretty well. The problems are that you have to be able to actually hit the mouth of the bucket, and the bucket, due to weight, ends up pretty low to the ground (I usually set it on top of an up-ended bucket). It's also rather heavy to lug around and set up.

So I was thinking about another approach. I know that in bullet resistant cars they often hang a weighted kevlar curtain inside the door, so that when a bullet passes through the steel of the door it then hits the kevlar curtain, which is weighted at the bottom, which then "billows" up as the bullet hits it, absorbing the energy before falling back down into place.

I wonder if this might work well for our relatively soft, large, slow lead bullets from our muzzle loaders.

I was envisioning buying some Kevlar fabric, perhaps multiple layers, and hanging it from a wood curtain rod supported by uprights. The bottom of the curtain would terminate in a loop in which another wood curtain rod could be inserted, for weight. This could be hung at any usual height behind a usual paper target. When fired into, I would hope that the Kevlar curtain would billow around the bullet and then fall back into its relaxed state, with the bullet falling to the ground in front of it.

This system would have the advantage of being pretty portable - you just roll up the curtain around its poles and off you go.

What do you think of this idea?

Steve
Four years ago, I was contacted by our field office in North Carolina who wished to know the specific requirements for the UL 752 ballistic test for composite bullet-resisting fabrics like Kevlar. It seems that a government contractor was constructing a ballistic safety barrier atop a shoot-house complex and wished to substitute a 1.125-in thick fiberglass-composite armor by Texas-based ArmorCore designed to withstand up to 55-grain 5.56mm lead-core rifle ammo (UL Level 7). The UL 752 test for composite ballistic materials consists of firing five rounds at a distance of 15 feet into a 4-inch by 4-inch square, with a witness curtain situated directly behind the target panel to further evaluate any spalling (fragmentation) or debris that might result from either full or partial penetrations that might possibly injure anyone standing immediately behind the bullet-resisting barrier.

http://ulstandards.ul.com/standard/?id=752
(http://ulstandards.ul.com/standard/?id=752)
Because the UL and National Institute of Justice (NIJ) criterion was developed at a time when the M16A1 utilized the 55-grain copper-jacketed lead-core bullet standard during the Vietnam conflict. As it was suspected that the newer 62-grain (XM855) “Green-Tip” armor-penetrating ammo might negate the UL 752 testing, ArmorCore conducted their own tests hoping to convince customers of the greater level of safety using ArmorCore products that met or exceeded UL standards. Unable to obtain the sample government-controlled XM155 “Green-Tip” ammo as currently issued for the M16A4 carbine (despite it being widely available via internet sources) ArmorCore submitted test results substituting the standard NATO SS109 bullet loaded by a commercial ammunition manufacturer who just so happened to be a leading oversea manufacturer. ArmorCore’s test results further showed no penetrations of their Level 7 ballistic composite armor using the SS109 steel-penetrator bullet.

However, because the foreign-made NATO ammo utilized a different propellant that is weaker than that used at Lake City for the government-controlled ammo, in conducting our own tests using government “Green-Tip” training ammunition, we found that three of the five rounds passed completely through the composite test panel provided by ArmorCore. The contractor almost immediately complained that the 15-foot test distance was too severe a test and therefore “unfair” to them. Upon inquiring what the minimum distance the barrier was to be placed from any live fire, the contractor suggested a 100-meter test would be more appropriate. However, in the second test at the greater distance, it was found that all five rounds passed through the test panel using the standard government “Green-Tip” ammo.

Later, when we suggested we might approve ArmorCore’s composite ballistic armor provided that the manufacturer and the contractor would literally “stand behind their product”, they declined, and the contractor finally agreed to install the 3/8-inch AR500 steel plate armor as was originally specified for the ballistic safety barrier.

Although what you propose may utilize subsonic soft-lead ammunition, the UL 752 testing criteria is the same, and once you have conducted such testing (provided it is a product you wish to bring to market), you could submit your testing to any potential clients. Below is a link to a similar product to what you describe. Although the product below is rated for UL Level 8 (.30 cal rifle), it won’t stop some ammo such as 7.62x39 Soviet Block/Chicom tungsten steel-pentrators though such pre-ban ammo has not been imported since the 1980s.

http://www.betafenceusa.com/Bullet-Resistant-Fence

Of course, ArmorCore conducts their own “in-house” testing, and in the video link below, they cite the NIJ criteria as requiring a maximum 4.5”x4.5” test area, yet, per their video demonstrating the UL Level 8 ballistics testing to simulate shots from an M-14 (.308/7.62x51), the test area appears to be more than double that area, spreading out the force deformation and thereby reducing any chance of possible fragmentation.

http://armorcore.com/about-waco-composites/in-house-testing/

[Maillemaker]

I'm not interested in making a product, I just want a portable means to collect my lead. The bullet bucket works great, I figured the kevlar curtain would be even better, being more portable and presenting a larger surface area than the mouth of a bucket.

>Although what you propose may utilize subsonic soft-lead ammunition

I don't know exactly what muzzle velocity is typical for our guns. I always thought they were in the neighborhood of 900 fps.

I found this ballistic calculator on the web and found it interesting:

http://i.imgur.com/6L4EX27.png

At 900 fps a 500 grain bullet has a ME of 899 ft-lb At 1200 fps it has a ME of 1600 ft-lb.

At lower velocities it appears relatively tame compared to other rounds. At higher velocities it gets up there on par with .243 Win.

Steve

[jek279]

I feel that the Kevlar is a good idea. But, just like a steel target, set it with 20 degree down pitch at the bottom to help deflect the bullets energy. To help prevent fabric flap and control bullet deflection, put a rubber mat on the back side of the Kevlar to add a little weight and retain flexibility.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Only one way to find out:

http://www.cstsales.com/products.html

http://fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Reinforcements/Carbon_and_Kevlar/carbon_and_kevlar.html
(http://fiberglasssupply.com/Product_Catalog/Reinforcements/Carbon_and_Kevlar/carbon_and_kevlar.html)
http://www.armorco.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=215
(http://www.armorco.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=215)
http://www.uscomposites.com/kevlar.html

[MR. GADGET]

I looked at some panels that they put in doors and also make vedistort om.

was looking into this for something different.

I was trying to bring to market a sheet or mat that would be the size of a laptop or carry case.
at the time there were a few that had come on the market and building back packs and cases with it built in.

What I wanted to do was make a sheet lack of better words that could go anyplace. Something you could add to anything or even had a handle on it. Also market as a unload reload point of aim in case of a AD.
What I found was that any contact on the outside 2 to 3" would distort and destroy the edge.
so you needed to finish all ends and it would be best if you used a solid sheet and folded it.
No no folds it due to the work.
Take a panel the size of a laptop. After a cover and finished it would weigh 10 to 12 lb for a 12" by 14" section.

what I'm getting at is that you need to finish the panels and the edges. And then even add a cover over it.
So that being said you #1 end up with a lot of weight #2 end up paying a lot to finish it as you can not just use cut sheets with 15 layers.

to make a sheet say 2' x 3' to hang a paper target in front then a steel rod to hang it and hold the force it would take you would have a lot of weight. The cost of the sheets was not bad but add 3 to 4 times that to have them edge and cover it just maket it no good.
Also if it gets wet it must be dry before putting away or shot at.
The life line for it would be a few seasons if you shoot.

I think a sheet of AR500 would be best and build a system that would fit in a reciever hitch and that would last you your lifetime.

[Maillemaker]

I think a sheet of AR500 would be best and build a system that would fit in a reciever hitch and that would last you your lifetime.

This is not an option for me as I shoot at a public range that does not allow metal. Though I bend the rules because my bullet bucket has a few sheets of metal in the bottom to keep from breaking out the bottom of the bucket.

I think they are primarily concerned with metal stuff wrecking the blades of the industrial mowers they use to mow the range, with a secondary concern of ricochet. I pack out everything I pack in, and there is no way a bullet is going through 2 feet of chipped rubber and back out again, so I am not concerned.

This is an idea of what I had in mind:

http://i.imgur.com/uTETq2Z.png

The whole thing should be portable.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

The first image below shows the front side of a rigid 1-1/8” thick NIJ Level 7 Kevlar composite panel submitted for testing the effects of 62-grain 5.56-mm Lake City (M855) Green-Tip ammunition at 15-feet per the UL 752 testing criterion. The second image shows the effects of the rear of the same panel, where 3 of the 5 rounds exited.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii305/rmac1023/Shot5Front_zpsd3075afb.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii305/rmac1023/Shot5Back_zpsb484c439.jpg

As noted, the test panel above was an inch and an eighth thick, such that the number of fabric layers (upwards of 50) were held in place as interleaves between layers of cured fiberglass epoxy. Because many of the current market’s ballistic panel manufacturers regard their manufacturing processes as proprietary, it may not be so easily determined just what NIJ Level protection is attainable based on the number of fabric layers applied. Rather to achieve this data may likely require you investing in not only product research but hiring of an independent testing laboratory like Underwriter's Laboratory (at $35/hr) to conduct such ballistics tests under highly-controlled empirical conditions.

According to Dupont’s literature, “tests show that Kevlar® XP™ typically stops bullets within the first three layers of a vest designed with a total of 11 layers. The remaining layers of Kevlar ® XP™ absorb the energy of the bullet, resulting in less trauma to the vest wearer.” Although for the purpose you stated, you are not striving to attain the same level of protection against ballistic penetration or trauma, yet the performance objective you hope to achieve still is related to the ballistic stopping power of a laminated Kevlar blanket of sorts, since clearly a failure would be a situation where the minie ball either penetrates the Kevlar fabric or it ricochets back toward the firing line.

[Maillemaker]

I was hoping that layers of relatively loose fabric would perform quite differently than a rigid panel of material. Rather than trying to rigidly stop the bullet in a rigid matrix, my thought was like the weighted Kevlar curtains hung inside car doors.

The idea being that the Kevlar can billow can softly catch the bullet rather than rigidly stop it.

Also Does the 5.56 NATO Federal XM855 62 Grain FMJ Green Tip have a steel penetrator core?

It also seems to have a muzzle energy of 1326 ft-lbs.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/90755

This is interesting information but I'm not sure it is a fair comparison to a .58 cal lead bullet.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

I was hoping that layers of relatively loose fabric would perform quite differently than a rigid panel of material. Rather than trying to rigidly stop the bullet in a rigid matrix, my thought was like the weighted Kevlar curtains hung inside car doors.

The idea being that the Kevlar can billow can softly catch the bullet rather than rigidly stop it.

Also Does the 5.56 NATO Federal XM855 62 Grain FMJ Green Tip have a steel penetrator core?

It also seems to have a muzzle energy of 1326 ft-lbs.


This is interesting information but I'm not sure it is a fair comparison to a .58 cal lead bullet.

Steve

Yes, the M855 Green Tip has a steel core but it is not classified as "armor-piercing" ammunition. It is only designed to penetrate up to a quarter-inch of mild steel, not hardened steel or armor like the tungsten-core typified by Soviet Block/Chicom ammo. Again, the above testing was conducted to evaluate the preformance of this specific manufacturer's rigid composite plate because they had claimed to have conducted the same testing showing their Level 7 armor had resisted the same bullet, and the contractor wanted to cut costs (Kevlar vs AR 500 Steel). "Abrasion Resistant" (AR) steel is pretty tough to beat.

[Maillemaker]

Found this thread:

http://ingunowners.com/forums/general-firearms-discussion/55500-kevlar-bullet-trap.html

Not very informative but it sounds like a range was doing this.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Just curious anent how heavy a ballistic blanket you might be thinking about? Below is a link to ArmorCo's NIJ Level III-A Kevlar ballistic blankets (resistant to most pistol and shotgun rounds). The smallest size (1m x 1m) weighs approx. 18 lbs and retails at $1,380 while the 2m x 2m blanket retails at $2,248. This blanket has a fire-retardant, water-repellent nylon cover, and nylon web loops at the corners. A 24" wide x 24" tall x48" long wooden box "gran-trap" (granulated rubber fill) is beginning to look much better, and less expensive than the Kevlar idea.

http://www.armorco.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=114

[Maillemaker]

I don't know. I had already emailed those people for a recommendation on Kevlar fabric - there are so many to choose from.

But you can buy it on ebay for about $25 per yard.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1500-DENIER-60-W-BALLISTIC-KEVLAR-PARA-ARAMID-SYNTHETIC-FABRIC-COATED-SK3-/271721735595?pt=US_Fabric&hash=item3f43e0a5ab

If you bought 10 yards and folded in half to get a 30" wide swath, then folded it on itself until you had a 30" square, you'd have 8 layers for about $250.

Here's a 10-pack of 10" x 14" for $42.50.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-sheet-pack-Kevlar-ballistic-bulletproof-fabric-10-x14-/181510211201?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a42da0681

Steve