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kymmwilson
09-18-2007, 03:36 AM
im building two lemat carbines and am curious as to rules for use in nssa events, would i be able to shoot in a carbine compitition with said lemats??being 9 shot with a shot gun (or buck n ball) how would this work
thanks Kymm

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-18-2007, 08:01 AM
If allowed, it would probably be classified as a BLII, a repeater, not Carbine.

Although I don't think the issue has come up, I suspect the answer would be no for the same reason the Colt revolving rifles are not allowed. The manner of shooting such a carbine would put your hand in front of a loaded cylinder. Since chain fires have been noted in such weapons, rules prohibit use of such weapons for safety reasons.

It still is an interesting question. Anyone with more knowledge want to chime in?

Richard Hill
09-18-2007, 09:14 AM
Read Section 14 of the rules, posted on this web site. Also, no evidence has yet been discovered that confirms the importation of these carbines for use in the Civil War.

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-18-2007, 12:36 PM
The Rules state this:

14.4 PROHIBITED ARMS
The use of any firearm employing exposed loaded chambers which must be held so that portions of the body of the competitor, other competitors, or spectators are in the line of fire of unfired chambers is prohibited. Also prohibited from use in N-SSA competition is any US smoothbore musket utilizing a barrel manufactured for a model of firearm prior to the model of 1816. Reproductions of smoothbore muskets and barrels manufactured prior to 1816 must have Small Arms Committee approval.

Also, in line with what Richard posted:

14.1 ACCEPTABLE SKIRMISH MATCH FIREARMS
Only original or reproductions of military firearms manufactured during the Civil War or prewar era, and which meet the criteria set forth in these rules, shall be used for competition. Those arms must have been manufactured prior to 26 April 1865 in quantities of at least 100 arms each. The arms must have been possessed by a US, CS, state, or local military authority during the American Civil War, but they do not need to have been issued to troops in the field.

kymmwilson
09-19-2007, 03:44 AM
thanks you guys !
im not quite sure how a carbine six shooter differs from a hand gun six shooter they both have same risk and any fool knows you dont hold out onto the barrel (thus the hand hold on trigger gaurd)and it is but a few inchs further back than a hand gun ? but rules are rules
And there is proof that it was used in a reciept for ammo for lemats carbines recieved in the south in 1862 bublished in one of the lemat books and there numbers where well above two hundred ????
kymm

Minieball577
09-19-2007, 06:22 AM
Our rules also require handguns to be fired with one hand, so the risk in a revolver is not an issue as it COULD be in a revolving rifle.

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-19-2007, 07:28 AM
Use of the Lemat Carbine is still not legal I believe for the safety reasons described previously (I am not sure that is a "hand Hold" on the trigger guard), I would like to see your proof that the Lemat Carbine was actually imported to this country during the CW period.

Ammunition, from my readings, is the same for both the Army revolvers and the carbines. Revolver importation and usage is well documented but not for the Carbine.

I seem to have read the Carbine was post CW, not during, and was used by the US Army.

If you have this documentation, I am sure folks on this board would like to see it.

efritz
09-19-2007, 08:24 PM
Interesting that the firearm is prohibited for safety reasons. Can anything be more unsafe than the Henry? Shooters have been maimed by these firearms and numerous other accidents have been noted, yet they are still allowed.

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-20-2007, 02:27 AM
In the N-SSSA, Henry shooters are required to be trained to follow certain specific safety rules and procedures that minimize the chance of the accidents you describe. The Henry was actually used as a single shot only for a period of time until the safety rules and procedures had been put into effect. Since we put the rules into effect, I am not aware of any incidents with the Henry. The Henry is still required to be single fed for individuals to limit the opportunity for an error. Violate the rules and you will be pulled from the line.

The primary cause of most of the injuries was improper reloading of cartridges combined with loading techniques used to put the cartridges in the weapon. The principal cause is the reloader using Rifle primers in Pistol brass. This results in raised primers. The rules are designed to lessen the chance that a raised primer can cause an accident. Ammunition is also subject to inspection for raised primers.

There is no adaptation of shooting that I can see that will make a revolving rifle or carbine safe. The hand is out in front of loaded chambers. If a chainfire occurs, so will a serious injury.

kymmwilson
09-20-2007, 02:37 AM
Actually the ammo for the carbine was different in that the single lower barrel was actually undersized(as compared to pistol)as to add clearance for threads on retaining lug, and then rifled to boot.
and i would bet there was more powder but thats totall speculation.
i will see if i can scan ( well you will have to email me as i cant post any pictures on site)the reciept document clearly stating ammunition for lemats carbine 1862!
Mute point though id say the powers to be have made a dicision and nobody reverses a Custer dicision!!aye................
Dr Lemat recognized the hand forward of chamber problem and addressed this with victorian thinking and in the first attempts used the spurred trigger gaurd of the calvery mod as a rudimentery saecond hand hold, but finding this lacking,switched to an enlarged flattened forend of the trigger gaurd (which was its intended purpose albeit insuficiant)
it seem's silly to me exclude a gun, that is identical hundreds being used excepying a longer barrel and stock!

kymm.k.wilson@boeing.com

kymmwilson
09-21-2007, 03:34 AM
Edwin
the lemat carbines WHERE used by the union troops post civilwar, true! they where the confederate percusion guns converted to rimfire, they liked them very much to take this effort(or feared them), and where else would the union after the war have gotten these ? does one really think they where going to purchase from abroad after the flood of arms from the war? NO.....not evan an option!!! ,they took these feared arms from the confederates and put them to use there just is no other explenation.
best regards with fervant resolve Kymm

p.s. i have a copy of doc from Macon county1863 invoice of recieved ordnance.
in your court

John Holland
09-21-2007, 10:28 AM
Ed, Chris, Eric, etc,

IMHO, you have all missed the point. "kymmwilson" is just another arms enthusiast who wants to build a neat toy to play with, not to skirmish with! Remember, he lives in Seattle. The odds of him ever setting foot on the grounds of an official N-SSA event are slim to none.

We, the active members, all know the N-SSA's Rules and Regulations, and why they were written the way they are. We live and breathe them on a regular basis. Several of us have even been tasked with enforcing them. If the LeMat Carbines were being built for intended use in the N-SSA, it would be a different matter, and I would weigh in on it, but they are not. So, the construction and use of them is a moot point, at best.

In closing, I encourage "kymmwilson" to enjoy his LeMat project!

Sincerely,
John Holland
Chairman, Small Arms Committee
N-SSA

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-21-2007, 10:35 AM
The only import of any LeMats that I have seen documentation for is the revolver. Find the documentation for import of the guns and I will concede your point. Until there is documentation of the weapons arriving in Southernn or Northern hands, I will be a skeptic. Show me documentation of their import, guns, not ammo.


Calibers and gauge for the Army revolver is the same as the Carbines. The importing of the ammo for carbines may explain why so many of the Revolvers are reported to have blown up in the users hand. Over charges due to Rifle ammo being used in Pistols.

It is my understanding very few Carbines were made. The report I read on Federal usage was more of a test rather than an issue of weapons. I doubt seriously if more than 50 were ever imported. I would love to be proved wrong.

Minieball577
09-21-2007, 11:44 AM
John, I guess I overlooked the fact that his location is in Seattle. That being said, I understand there are reasons to build guns other than N-SSA needs, but Mr. Wilson asked specifically how N-SSA rules would read in regards to his project.

John Holland
09-21-2007, 12:37 PM
Yes, Chris, you are correct about the initial question, which I believe was amply answered. But, the discussion degenerated from that point and with kymmwilson's last post of "in your court"; I got the distinct impression he is just looking for someone to argue with.

Just my opinion.

See you in VA.

John

Minieball577
09-21-2007, 12:53 PM
Understood. ;) See you soon.

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-21-2007, 01:25 PM
As I said, I would love to be proven wrong about its import. I hope Kymmwilson proceeds with his project. I would love to see it when it is done. I encourage him to go forward with it and would never discourage building any historical weapon.

I would love to find proof of importation of the Lemat Carbine. I think I could make an argument that might persuade the powers that be to allow its use under very strict guidelines as a BLII for individuals, mainly requiring the front hand to be kept on the trigger guard, behind the cylinder. Also, using only a solid projectile in the shotgun barrel.

As a practical matter, a percussion Lemat Carbine would not be a team event weapon because it would not be able to be loaded in a safe manner without a major concession and re-write of the rules.

John Gross
09-21-2007, 06:37 PM
I have no idea how I got involved in this but Mr. Kymmwilson sent me an e-mail attachment last week with a picture of this Lemat. By the way Mr. Kymmwilson YOU DO NOT SEND 4 MEGABITE PICTURES TO SOMEONE WHO HAS NO INTEREST IN YOUR ITEM AND HAS NOT ASKED FOR OR IS NOT EXPECTING SUCH ATTACHMENTS.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There, I feel better.

Anyway, for those of you interested in his item I shrunk the image to a more managable size and include it here.

John Gross
confederate@att.net

http://home.att.net/~confederate/lemat.jpg

Phil Spaugy, 3475V
09-21-2007, 08:56 PM
Looks like a "Seattle Smoke Wagon" to me.!!! :wink:

Phil

kymmwilson
09-22-2007, 12:53 AM
guys guys guys

in your court is a polite way to say your turn !

i apoligize if that or anything else was taken as more than polite debating

if you guys dont like some one debating without being a member a point just say so

thanks to you whom have been fun to discuss this with (Edwin) enjoyed it and hope to continue.

i feel the nasty comments are not being generated by me ? a person whom wished he could be a part of your fraternity but probably will never get the chance !

thanks John H for words of encouragement ,i will
thanks Edwin and i truly enjoyed the debate with you

i will end with the lemat carbine has been included in nearly every book on confederate arms are all these authers not doing there home work?
with polite ententions
Kymm

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-22-2007, 03:45 AM
Kymm,

First off, the picture looks like you did a fine job. If the opportunity arises, I would like to examine it in person.

Second, I like a good argument/debate. Even when I am proven wrong, I still enjoy it. I have enjoyed our exchange. I wish some of the more learned members would join in. I know that my little library is woefully inadequate to fully discuss the Lemat Carbine.

Now my turn.

I would like to have cites or references for the books. I have looked tonight in WM. Edwards, McAuleys, Dr. Murphy's book and a few minor references. The Lemat Carbine is not listed. Dr. Murphy's and Edwards book are considered some of the best, if not the best, on the subject of Confederate arms. I also Googled it and there was not a reference I could find documenting the arrival in quantity of a Lemat Carbine.

The only reference book I own that mentions the Lemat Carbine is Hill and Anthony "Confederate Longarms and Pistols". That reference states that there were 3000 pistols and carbines made. It does not distinguish between them. They state that they were delivered to agents of the Confederacy in France and England. No mention of their use or delivery on these shores. They state that only about 1500 of the first and second models were shipped to the Confederacy and approximately 100 of the baby Lemats were received. We know the pistols made it, but you can't assume the Carbines did without some more proof they arrived in the Confederacy. Until I see some sort of documentation of actual arrival on this shore, I will be a skeptic as to their use in quantity. I suspect a few may have made it, but again, not in quantity.

Show me something that shows they were inventoried into an arsenal somewhere. A shipping manifest showing arrival at a Confederate port. Anything. If your source is credible, it will reference where the information came from so you can guage its reliability.

Just because you saw it in a book doesn't make it so. Over the years, I have seen so much incorrect published information on various topics that I have begun to pay close attention to the reference materials used. The biggest farce I have seen was the "The Pocket Book of Civil War Weapons". The book was discussed on a BB posting a couple of years ago and it is still up if you want to read about it. If there are no references cited, I discount it considerably.

Give me some specific references I can go look at for myself.

The Hill/Anthony book is a great book as it includes EVERYTHING they could identify with a Confederate connection. They even include those that were mere curiousities. I suspect that they included the Lemat Carbine to be sure it was mentioned as a possible weapon of the Confederacy but made clear, they were not sure it arrived here in quantity.

How about building one of the real odd balls? The one I like best is the "Virginia Pacificator". There was only 1 or 2 of these ever made. It is a 28 caliber, 48 round repeater, with 8 magazines. It was deemed too expensive to make by the Confederacy to produce. It is a truly unique Confederate weapon and it was made on these shores.

How about the references?

Blair
09-22-2007, 09:46 AM
Edwin,
I think you are correct. I believe proper documentation is, or should be, a requrirment prior to starting any project of this type.

If this were a Colt Root Revolving Carbine instead of the Lemat it would meet all of the N-SSA's requirements of numbers produced and usage/issue. All the N-SSA's requirements except the all important one of SAFETY. Safety to the shoot as well as the safety of those standing near by.
The shooter may have his off hand in a safe place, but what of the folks standing on either side of them?
For as unique as the Colt Root Revolving Carbines and Rifles are, I doubt they will ever be approved in the N-SSA and I believe the reasons are self evident. This is true of the Lemat version for the same type of firearm.

Kymmwilson,

From what I can see from the photo, you are doing a great job. I am sure you will have no problems finding buyers.
However, you should consider consumer liability in this case more so than the authenticity as the true issue.
Someone gets hurt from a firearm you have modified or built up, that person can own everthing you own.
You have to make the thing "idiot proof", you have to train them, you have to provide writen instructions before you turn the thing over to someone, and that may not even help.
Just an element you may not have concidered.
Blair

kymmwilson
09-22-2007, 08:46 PM
Blair and Edwin
I would have to concede that there is no known document of the arm itself being recieved as i know of (albeit i would say there are probably others that are officiated that have no proof as well?, ( the debate is confederate use and not nssa use as it sits i bowed out of orig debate on this) i do personally consider the facts as layed out and examined with open mindedness and understanding of the prediciment of the confederacy that i dought they would turn away any high fire power arm as the lemat carbine? then we come to manufacture the numbers are in concrete upto number 112 left in original percussion(200+ converted). these are all early second models that would have (if shipped for you guys)would have made it in with the 1500 pistols recieved as nearly all production was for confedaracy excepting presentaion models(per fervant confederat Dr Lemat).i think if anything ever does serface it will be evidance from other side of pond that they where sent with pistols.
and then there is for me the reciept from the Macon county ordnance officer Capt W Mallet superintendant armoury macon county,signing reciept of invoice for carbine ammunitions for merrils and lemats carbines may 2 1863. this (in my opinion) with the conditions of the confederacy and the 17 surviving examples in the states with the use of (as u stated fifty for trials after the war refutiate ther use use in the confederacy. As
after the war nobody would import a very high priced PERCUSSION weapon when there was a flood of breachloaders for cheap!

to me its shipped or not as the gun would defently not have been rejected at shore by a desperate calvary, it is a piece of rare history and i am trying to faithfuly replicate , let me see your work mr poughy?
im very interested in the repeater you speak of Edwin and pass on any info if available ,much appreciated.
i have built two 1855 rifles with r cross functioning locks one palmetto armoury 1842 and have restored many basket cases, am looking into project to follow lemats

p.s. you can possibly see the my work later as i have offered to a friend Tony Beck to have a go of it sighting it in.
best wishes to all in the nssa,
kymm

kymmwilson
09-22-2007, 09:19 PM
oops forgot books:
Lemat ,the Man the gun, by Val Forgett
confederate carbines and musketoons ,john Murray
Arming the glorius cause ,J,Wisker
lemat revolver ,doug adams
fighting men of the civil war (calvery section)

Kymm

Richard Hill
09-23-2007, 04:03 PM
I've got several books on imported arms. The only one with a chapter on the Le Mat carabine is "Les Armes De La Guerre De Secession - Les Sudistes" by Didier Bianchi, which my wife and I have translated. In the Le Mat carabine section the book states that the South "categorically refused" to buy any of the rifles because of the high price demanded. The book lists no references. The chapter also says that perhaps a "fortunate few" bought one of these guns privately via blockade runner and used it.

kymmwilson
09-23-2007, 04:39 PM
Now there is some information that needed to be shared that i had nevr heard ,thank you very much i nead to get that book(although my french is as good my Latin
that would explain the few hundreds or so and never any serious production was ventured.i wonder what the price had been?
one can only wonder what if?they had been cheaper and ordered a few calvary top units fully equiped with these and able to hold there own against the spencers,like at the right flank of gettysburg where the spencer troops ground the confederate calvary to stop as they tried to flank in suport of pickett, or even before spencers???
I know the pistol was priced at 35 where indeed you could get a kerr for 8
Blair
i think your right and idiot proof the gun is not. a modicum of comensense would be required to not put hand out past a fully loaded nine shot chamber while igniting other chambers,(makes me queezy thinking of what 8 44's would do to a hand at close range,ewww)but iwould suggest to any one with a percussion revolving rifle to grease&wad over the bullets thus making it nearly as safe as a union "henry"(hope i dont get beat up for this one )....................
Kymm

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-23-2007, 10:29 PM
Kymm:

I must have a different copy of John Murphy's Confederate Carbines and Musketoons. Mine doesn't list the Lemat Carbine. Publication date was 1986. He is the Dr. Murphy I was referencing. With Richard's post, I think that explains why there are so few of the carbines here. There were lots of individuals that armed themselves through private funds, mainly officers. If it had been offered at a decent price, I doubt the Confederacy would have turned it down either.

Somewhere, I have some scans on the "Pacificator". If I can find the Scans, I will send them to you. Maybe you could get copies of the patent drawings from the Patent office. I suspect it will be quite the chore. If you are going back East next year, the only known example is in the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond.

I have enjoyed this discussion.

Hate to defend a Yankee Gun, but the only safety problem with the original that I know about was that the Henry would fire before the cartridge was fully "in battery" within the chamber. Dangerous for the shooter, particularly his eyes. The other problems were a matter of inconvenience, such as loading, no forearm, underpowered cartridge, etc. Winchester finally corrected the problem with the Model 1873.

The problem with the current reproduction is that they are made in centerfire, not the original rimfire. Some folks that are not used to reloading their own ammo use rifle primers instead of pistol. The raised primers, with bad loading habits have contributed to lots of injuries. If you do it right, the chance of injuries diminishes substantially.

Another problem I was told about but not heard from any authoritative source, is that some re-enactors, in making the blanks use wads that get stuck in the barrels. You can imagine what that does with subsequent rounds. the Henry can be safely shot if you learn the basic precautions.

kymmwilson
09-23-2007, 10:48 PM
The revised edition adds this as follows

CONFDERATE CARBINES & MUSKETOONS
Cavalry Small Arms Manufactured in and for the Southern Confederacy 1861-1865
by John M. Murphy, M.D. With a foreword by Norm Flayderman

This beautiful, new companion volume to "Confederate Rifles & Muskets" identifies, describes, and pictures all known and accepted types of cavalry longarms made for and used by C.S.A. forces during the Civil War. Includes exciting new chapters on the enigmatic Le Mat percussion carbines, Southern arsenal alterations of Hall's flintlock rifles to percussion carbines, and the issue of double-barrel shotguns to Confederate units--the latter never before seen in print! 8½ by 11 inches, 320 pages, profusely illustrated, hardcover with color jacket.
ISBN 1-882824-18-0
US$79.95








following taken diresctly from jsmosby,s current auction with pics of carbine excactly as mine picturd

In the arsenal of historic Confederate weapons is this extremely rare two-barrel, ten-shot, Le Mat revolving cylinder carbine. It is the only foreign-manufactured repeating shoulder arm made under contract to the Confederacy during the war. The top barrel was rifled for .42 calibre and the bottom barrel for .48 calibre. Only 17 surviving examples are known of the Le Mat carbine, ranging in serial number from 2 to 112. This one is number 60 and is the only engraved example known! (This would suggest that it was either an officer's model or intended for presentation to a CSA government official.) Other unique features of this example not found on other specimens are the spur trigger guard and clam shell patch box. Both were originally silver-washed also. The ramrod is missing, several nipples were replaced, most likely during time of use, and the cylinder doesn't revolve when cocked. This particular piece has been highlighted in the latest edition of Dr. John Murphy's acclaimed study, "Confederate Carbines & Musketoons." The weapon has also been shown in several other significant reference sources on Confederate small arms. This carbine was once owned by pioneer collector and Confederate reference book author Edward N. Simmons and still retains his inventory number "42." This carbine is truly a rare and exquisite piece of CSA history with impeccable provenance.

Item #: JSM 2097
Price On Request

Kymm

Richard Hill
09-24-2007, 10:28 AM
Just looked at my copy of Dr. Murphy's book. At the end of the Le Mat carbine chapter is some notes that site references. One note already mentioned is the May 2nd, 1863 "Invoice of Stores" shipped to the Macon Armory, which among other items lists "2 Packages Cartridges for Breechloading Carbines" with "Merrills and Lemats Carbine" hand-written off to the side of the entry. The invoice page is reproduced as an illustration. The Le Mat has a .42 caliber cylinder and a .48 caliber central barrel, and the Merrill carbine is .54 caliber. Anyone who has ever shot any of the old breechloaders will know how well this will work. Quite possibly, somebody back then made a mistake in identification, but which way? For what it's worth: the chapter in Murphy's book is written by M. Clifford Young, a Le Mat collector.

Several US books state the Le Mat carbine was made under contract for the CSA. Caleb Huse's dislike of the Le Mat revolver is documented, and a French book states the CSA would not buy them due to the high price. Private purchase of a very small number still seems the most likely explaination.

kymmwilson
09-24-2007, 05:17 PM
championed................
i am one hundred percent in agreement with richard excepting in my book it s a photo of said invoice and i would interpit it as crates of ammo as this is how they where shipped then ,and seperate pallet for each rifle type??the number of guns purchsaed individualy is the question ? i would reiterate this number to be in coralation to the numbers of production(pre production) of the model as all where coming to the states for anticipation of contract, or where they taken back to the ship and sent away from a nation under a siege for its very existance,its just not logical.
thank you for chimming in Richard with excellent information
oh joy for the glorious cause

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-24-2007, 05:57 PM
Kymm,

I don't think they were ever shipped. My understanding of the way things were is this:

Contracts were made for weapons at a specific price.

Weapons were delivered in Europe to the agents for the Confederacy to have shipped aboard blockade runners to the Confederacy.

Weapons contracted for were accepted by the agents in Europe, not over here. Probably a down payment made.

The inspections were made over here. Final Payment was then authorized.

Since the Confederacy rejected the Carbine based on price, I doubt they were ever shipped.

I suspect what happened was either an individual state ordered some, or private individuals ordered them and Lemat independently shipped them to the buyer. Also, it could be the Captain or sailor of a Blockade runner speculated with the weapon and put a few on board in his private stash/quarters/where ever space was available. (I know that sword blades were shipped here without hilts because they could be shoved into narrow nooks on the ship.)

How they got here is unknown. I just don't believe that they were ever ordered in quantity by the Confederacy or one of the states. Richard's cite is the best provided so far. I'll go with that for now.

kymmwilson
09-24-2007, 06:20 PM
Edwin
i personaly think they where shipped as sales examples to genearate sales(and not contracted) , liking to what spencer did offering them to higher ups and officers and for sale ( this is all speculation wagon )to generate there own sales . this could have been as low as 17 and they one hundred percent survived? or there where more and this number is what made it thru compare this to other arms and surviving numbers and i think this would be a good beromiter.
this alone would have to be accepted that there where more as per a running average for use vs surviving numbers (most of the survivors display signs of hard use)
how many other guns survived 100 %
( not getting nasty boys ) trying to state a case
kymm

Richard Hill
09-24-2007, 09:28 PM
It needs to be established that all the Le Mat rifles in this country arrived here between 1861 and 1865. That leaves a very large open window for arrival in later years, either as sales (doubtful) or as collectors’ curiosities. Many (I believe a great majority) of the Whitworth rifles in this country are in that category. Nobody sent significant quantities of guns to the South on speculation. All sellers demanded cash in advance, both North and South. Any individual sales would have been an exception, but few in numbers. Anyway, the speculator would have paid for the guns at the point of origin before shipment to the South.

Yes, the invoice in my book is a photocopy of the original. You will notice that the “Merrill and Lemat” cartridges were not the only types invoiced. Each specific type has a separate entry. This leads me to believe that the 2 packages were identical, to fit either gun. It could be possible that the cartridges were intended for Colt revolving rifles, mistakenly identified as “Lemat”. The .42 caliber cartridges won’t work in a Merrill, and .54 won’t work in a Le Mat. For an example, the CSA had a .54 to fit either the Mississippi or the Austrian Lorenz.

Also note on the preceding page in the Le Mat chapter that there is a picture of the 1918 edition of “Hobbies” magazine. Near the upper right corner is an illustration a Le Mat “pistol-carbine”, with the center barrel about twice the length of the revolver barrel, and no shoulder stock. Is this the “Lemat carbine”?

kymmwilson
09-24-2007, 10:22 PM
Richard
I would have to agree with you grudgingly , but only if the lemats where brought in much much later, as after the war and for nearly one hundred years there would have been very little interest and no need for percussion carbines that where disputed as confederate to begin with ? true ?
i have seen that pistol carbine and it appears to be an after thought like my projects built off of a revolver.
the invoice is an anommoly?, as there is very excellent labeling happening on all of f the ammunition packaging down to individual packs of tens and twenties and very well imbossed on crates in those times i have a label for lemat and spencer .making this invoice even more peculiar.
i wished one of us could find a coupe de gra for or against, but this will probably not be forth coming soon.
so i concede! that i will never be able to give proof to the the hard pressed rebels the one and only gun that would ever so slightly have given them a better ability to give what was being given in more prolific and diversified forms some equal fire power. the rebels lost, and continue to loose.
its fun to talk about though, thanks to all with excellent and fourthright comments.

this can and should continue if something new comes up.
Richard do you have any information on the lemat carbine that might be helpful to me ,it would be greatly appreciated as info is very hard to come by such as rifling in the lower barrel, i,ve found nothing.
Kymm

Blair
09-25-2007, 12:09 PM
Here is some information you all may find interesting.
A book writen by A W F Taylorson, titled, "The Revolver 1865 - 1888", deals primarily with the developement of British cartridge revolvers.

Lemat has several patents registered in England and Taylorson lised them in this book.
Pat. # 1081 / 1862 is a joint patent for the original Leamt revolvers.
Pat. # 3131 / 1868 is an extention to that original patent and for improvements in the hammer for pin - fire ingnition system.
Pat. # 3181 / 1869 is for improvements in ammunition.
Pat. #3218 / 1871 is for a loading gate.
Pat. #588 / 1877 is foe an improvement to hammer for center-fire.

These various British patent dates may help give you some idea to a time frame for a cartridge version of a Lemat.

I don't believe for a monent that the U S Government ever felt they needed to experiment with a firearm made by or for the Confederacy.
The weapons glut after the War did effect the civilian market. However, the U S Government invested a lot of money into the develpement of cartridge and cartridge firearms.
If the U S indeed does experiment with the Lemat revolver after the war I don't think these had anything to do with C S A weapones.
Blair

kymmwilson
09-25-2007, 04:43 PM
thanks Blair

i dont know for sure where from, but i did read that they converted some from percusion to cartridge for use in indian wars?? maybe Richard could chime in with siome information on this ? it seems to me we should be able to find more on there use after the war than we can on there use or lack thereof during>? thanks i am actually very interested in a cartridge version of the lemat. they have a look all unto themselves and have quite the victorian gismo look.
so you mean to tell me you believe that that the union imported very expensinve arms to experiment with when they had a plethera of versions in large numbers in there laps??? doesnt mathmaticly equate.
explain how they would have came by them, if they where no in confederate hands they where in europe and a fortune was being asked. and i would dought that col Lemat would give the union a discount??

Kymm

Blair
09-25-2007, 05:14 PM
Kymm,

You explained it yourself in an earlier posting.
Gun makers gave Government (s) examples of their fireams to examin and test, in hopes that it would promote future contracts.
Before the War, the National Armories of Harpers Ferry and Springfield did this before they went into production and Springfield alone after the War. Contractors had to submit pattern pieces to the Government before the contract was let. Subsiquint arms had to match those pattern pieces or the contract would be dropped.
Blair

kymmwilson
09-25-2007, 05:35 PM
Blair
thanks , I'm not sure that would be able to explain the numbers, i have heard of being tried out that would usaully constute a very small number indeed. I might be wrong but it seems like Edwin or Richard was saying fifty or so(i dont know)?but a try does require a certain number to validate the tryout. if someone has this info throw us bone here.
Kymm

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-25-2007, 06:17 PM
Kymm,

I think you siezed upon the statement I made below as agreeing that the Yankee governtment had 50. Here is the post I made:

I doubt seriously if more than 50 were ever imported.

It was my belief that counting Federal test carbines and individual purchases, No More Than 50 were imported into this country. I never meant to say the USG tested 50 of the carbines.

kymmwilson
09-25-2007, 09:28 PM
i have heard and read that the U.S. used them in trial during indian wars as converted breechloaders, i was not basing on what you had said, but rather disputing that a country over loaded with breechloaders&repeaters to the extreme would by or contimplate buying a very expensive gun , but would gladly take a gun as war booty and with minor conversion be able to convert to cartridge(the revolver ) and issue on trial as a gun with fundemental advantages at war boty costs.
can anybody show evidance of the trial gun s used at this time? i would like to see anything on these,Richard?are they conversions or of the shelf breechloaders???
some where there is something
kymm

R. McAuley 3014V
09-25-2007, 09:42 PM
CENSORED

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-25-2007, 10:38 PM
You are right! My bad!

Missed that mention. However, in my defense, It was 2:45 AM and couldn't sleep. Also, the index does not indicate Lemat Carbine/Rifle, but lists it under Revolver.

kymmwilson
09-25-2007, 10:45 PM
i like your style Mr McAuley..............
the condemnation of the pistols on this first gentlemans part is due to his being in the pocket of the kerr revolver people(its chief competitor)
if i am not mistaken as from several books.and this would just be the beginning of these fantastic pieces being treated negatively
but this be niether here nor there
kymm

R. McAuley 3014V
09-26-2007, 08:01 AM
CENSORED

Blair
09-26-2007, 10:03 AM
Kymm,

The politics of the time would not have allowed any former C S made firearm to have been considered for use in the U S Military.
Had the U S Military converted any captured Lemat's in their Armories and Arsinals, there would be records. Had the U S paid someone to do the work, there would be records. Had these been issued for field trials to U S Military presonel, there would be an Army Board of Ordinace report on its results.
The U S Government does not buy, then or now, unproven weapons. Once the "donated" weapon has gone through extensive testing and field trials, if accepted and only then, will the "donated" weapons be paid for. This procedure has nothing to do with the glut or prohabition of firearms on the civilian market.

You keep making referance to the Lemat under going some kind of testing and/or trials by the U S sometime, perhaps, during the Indian Wars. Where does this this come from? What is your source reference to this?
Just so I can extend my own research references.
Blair

kymmwilson
09-26-2007, 04:13 PM
Blair
i have read this in a museum piece on the lemat carbine , i believe Edwin chimmed in on this one early on , but i have nothing in writing
kymm

Blair
09-26-2007, 08:27 PM
Kymm,

Edwin Flint sent me copies of the articles he had found through Google. Unfortunatly they offer no reference to their researsh
Have you considered contacting any of the people that published these?
I think checking out their primary reference matterial would go a long way to help suport your efforts.
Blair

kymmwilson
09-26-2007, 09:18 PM
now my bad!
the politics of the times where experimentaton with all sorts of breech loaders converted from CW arms in different methods
i have never read anything that states that they would not convert anything but northern made

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-26-2007, 10:33 PM
Kymm, T

Here are the articles I sent to Blair. The only one of the articles found that I really deem likely credible is the first one. ( This one has I believe a likely error in that the 1858 Belgian Patent I believe was likely a Pinfire, not Rimfire version.) The other two are questionable. One appears to be an mixture of things someone read and may have gotten a few things confused, particularly the time the US Army tested the revolvers and their "use". The other I think is a dealer trying to sell a product with the best hype possible. He takes the lore going around and treats it as fact for purposes of sale. That happens quite a bit unfortunately with things related to the Confederacy.

http://www.civilwarnews.com/reviews/boo ... cfm?ID=877 (http://www.civilwarnews.com/reviews/bookreviews.cfm?ID=877)
http://www.floridareenactorsonline.com/carbinesetc.htm
http://www.jsmosby.com/cgi-bin/Display_ ... 23&image=3 (http://www.jsmosby.com/cgi-bin/Display_Item_Image.asp?Item=423&image=3)

I don't believe enough of the carbines were made, pre-war and during the war to consider it a legitimate Confederate weapon. Wishing it so, doesn't make it so. I would love to find that 2-300 of these were in the arsenals of the Confederacy, but just don't see it as likely.

kymmwilson
09-27-2007, 02:34 AM
Thanks Edwin BLair and richard etc
i feel the glass should be considered half full and would like the burden of proof to be a document stating they are to expensive or not wanted or refused,as i have to my credit one stating ammo for the confederacy for its use in the war no matter what is thought of it? it is there black and white!( holster those guns boys) its just a debate.

wouldn't that be early for a pinfire??i thought they popped up twds end of CW

Kymm

kymmwilson
09-27-2007, 04:15 AM
the whitworth rifle(very nice) is considered confederate issue, are there any docs affirmings its lagitamacy?
Mr kymmwilson to some

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-27-2007, 05:34 AM
No the Pinfire was developed in Europe about 1840. For a good time line of firearms progress, go to the following site:

http://armscollectors.com/gunhistorydates.htm

Yes, there is documentation of the Whitworth purchase and usage. Edwards book speaks of this as well as Hill and Anthony's Confederate Longarms and Pistols. Numerous other books also. Several hundred directly from Whitworth and several thousand from London Armory.

Blair
09-27-2007, 09:31 AM
Kymm,

"2 packages Cartridges for Breechloading Carbines" with hand writen in the margin "Merrilles and Lemat Carbines" does not constitute a primary source of documentation! Secondary source at best, perhaps.
This statement does not document the firearm, only the ammunition.
Lemat does not patent a loading gate untill 1871.
As mentioned in the above statement, How would this breechloading Lemat Carbine have been loaded? You would have to dismount the barrel from the frame to open the breech end of the cylinder for reloading.

I believe the resistance you are incountering on this board is due directly to the lack of research documentaion. This is what you really need if you want this weapon to be acceptable (not approved) here.
You don't really want or need anybodies approavial on this board. You have already justified this project in your own mind.
Blair

Richard Hill
09-27-2007, 12:29 PM
Ya'll will notice that further down the photocopy of the invoice is a line item for cartridges for "Lematts Grape Shot Revolver". Why two orders for the same ammo? Still seems a strong case for misidentification.

Caleb Huse (and others) didn't like the gun, but the contract seems to have been made without any military input; thus the folks at the tip of the spear were stuck with it. If the Edwards' book is to be believed, Huse tried his best to dump it. The Le Mat rifle is really not a legimate Civil War arm, either primary or secondary, but it's difficult to prove that at least a handful didn't make it over here on speculation.

Blair
09-27-2007, 01:18 PM
Richard,

I agree with you.
I know of a Lemat revolver serial # 8 (first model) that was supose to be the personal weapon of P G T Beauregard. He worked hard to help Lemat get his revolvers produced and accepted. (Could Beauregard's efforts have been the cause of Caleb Huse opinion of the weapon to be superceeded?) This revolver is one of several he was to receive for his assistance.
One of the problems is that it is not known "when" Beauregard recieved this revolver, during the War or after?
It would be very easy to speculate. This one revolver being a first model may add to that speculation.
Is speculation what truly happened? Or would it simply be making up our on version of history?
Blair

kymmwilson
09-27-2007, 08:26 PM
i agree with both of you its not primary source, its a secondary from a confederate ARMOURY this its more than you have shown for any thing else! the part about misidentification would be stretching it ,for a confederate officer in a armoury to write down for lemats carbines ammo for a weapon that according to you didn t exist in confederate armouries at all. come on? you have to give it it's lagitmacy for that is an impossible error(right).
its something stearing one in given direction. show me some kind of document(anything) for the other direction
the numbers of the gun in use is speculation in either direction from one to 112, Agreed. there use is not and armouries where recieving ammo for them
" Does not document the weapon only the ammo" ? qualify this statement please
best regards Kymm

kymmwilson
09-27-2007, 08:53 PM
Blair
im having fun in this, and hope you are as well .
documentation is lacking as good part of my inputs are because they input while im at work and all my books are at home for this i apolgize . approval is not what im after as you state i will do as i please, im a rebell( in the nicest form)
the guns are being built as standins for original guns that will never see a firing line due too value.

please read my last post:
the error is nare impossible when truly considered. is it possible for an error to be written by an armoury for weapon that wasnt used?


KYMM

Edwin Flint, 8427
09-27-2007, 10:20 PM
Kymm,

You are asking us to prove something does not exist. To prove a negative is darn near impossible. This is the reason in any court, hearing, academia, or any forum, the burden of proof is on the party trying to prove something is FACT, not the one who says it isn't so.

This is a favorite tactic for folks who cannot prove something they want to exist, but there is not any Tangible Proof. My favorite is the Loch Ness Monster or Big Foot. They are believed by thousands, maybe millions, of people to exist, yet the general consensus is that they don't exist because inspite of all efforts, no one has found proof.

I consider the Lemat Carbine/Rifle to be the Big Foot of Confederate weapons. Lots of folks think it was truly a Confederate weapon and the belief is genuine. But the fact remains, no records have been found to show that it in fact was purchased by the Confederacy or one of the State Militias despite years of examination, by many different people. Until these records are found, it cannot be considered to be a primary or even a secondary Confederate weapon.

It was only a few years ago that Paul Davies discovered conclusive proof of the actual manufacture and use of the "Artillery" 2 band Rifle by the Confederacy. Until then, folks argued endlessly about the existence of this weapon.

Maybe one day the records will surface. Until then, the burden is on you to prove the existance with primary, conclusive sources, that it WAS USED BY THE CONFEDERACY. I have spent too much time reading everything I can find on this subect. The only actual weapon that I have found that has a provenence mentioned is an engraved specimen that was to a YANKEE with the 16th MAine Volunteers. I strongly suspect, not know, that this was done after the war.

I have enjoyed this exchange. I hope you will continue to build such weapons. One day one of your guns may be the center of this same debate.

Don't be discouraged if some of us do not to respond. Nationals start next week and some of us will be in Virginia.

Get us some proof besides an ammo listing.

R. McAuley 3014V
09-27-2007, 10:40 PM
CENSORED

Blair
09-27-2007, 11:28 PM
Kymm,

I forget, so correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this Lemat Carbine thing YOUR project?
Like it or not but the berdon of proof falls on you! Thats just the way things work.

Tell me again what reasearch have you done?

Many people here have provided you with information and sorce matterials for you to check out for yourself.
That doesn't seem to be enough, Now you want them to do your research for you?
Blair

kymmwilson
09-28-2007, 03:35 AM
Im good with what we have done here! its for all
i dont need nor am i looking for any body to my research i do my own( ihave read everybook on the subject i could find in english , i am building them regardless,thanks for the words of encouragement
the materials passed on i already had but i i thanked every body for doing so anyway as that is how i was brought up.

HOW COULD THE RECIEPT BE IN ERROR? logically


I will close............................................. ...........................................
thanks for the debate and i hold high the knowledge base you guys have

Best regards Kymm


KYMM

Blair
09-28-2007, 09:01 AM
Kymm,

You bring up a very good points in you last message concerning,
"HOW COULD THE RECIEPT BE IN ERROR? Logically"
The French and Belgum ammunition packages I have seen have been marked in the language of the country they have come from. (not English)
They are more often than not marked in milimeters for the caliber. A .42 cal would be a 10.6 mm.
The Brits would often relate caliber to the "bore gage", the number of round lead balls of that give diameter to make up a pound of lead. Example; a .442 caliber equals a 54 bore.

Misidentification of ammunition is not uncommon, in that time or today.
It usually is not a problem until the misidentified ammo is issued.
Example; Cavalry Troopes issued the .45 S & W Schofield revolvers being issued .45 Colt ammo, making the revolvers usless, and those packages were marked in "English".
Any one with modern Military experiance knows to double check their ammo for just this reason.
Blair

kymmwilson
09-28-2007, 04:36 PM
this isnt like schofield misidentified as colt, its more akin to colt revolver ammo being misidentified as Nambu revolver ammo

Blair
09-28-2007, 05:29 PM
Kymm,

You asked "How could the reciept be in error? logicaly"
I gave you a logical explanation how packaged ammo marked in French could be misidentified.

I think the Japanies on a package of Nambu ammo would give me cause to wonder whether I had the right stuff to feed my Colt.
Blair

kymmwilson
09-28-2007, 06:17 PM
LOL!!!!!
alright alright !

Blair thank you for the fun
if either of the sides of fence come up with something new we should continue ? ya think
the lemat pistol is a facinating civil war artifac and the lemat carbine is enigmatic.
i wonder when the first debate of its use occured if it was during right after or near present days?? that would be fun to find
have fun at the nationals guys!

Kymm

kymmwilson
09-28-2007, 07:15 PM
nope sorry
i cant let it go at that .

its not logical!
somebody had to write down "lemats carbine" thats not misidentifing as for kerr or smith or colt ? its in english from the arsonel.
if the ammo arrived in its crate in french or swahili ,some body at the arsenel said this is for lemats carbine and wrote it down
unless there where lemat CARBINES there (or case or crate clearly stamped as for lemat carbine)nobody would have been able to make this error lest they be claravoiant.

being a structural inspector for boeing for twenty years has left me unable to accept something that just isn't right
Kymm

Blair
09-28-2007, 07:59 PM
Kymm,

Okay, check out the hand writing on the notation where the Lemat Carbine is mentioned. Does that hand writing match the other hand writing on the document? Does it look like it was writen with the same writing implament? Does the spelling match the spelling on the rest of the document?
If any of this differs, then the notation would be suspect as to it originality to rest of the document and the date in which that document was signed.
Another word. that particular notation could have been applied to that document by anyone at anytime. Its value as a reliable sorces for referance is lost.
You do not know that someone at the Arsinal wrote that notation. You don't even know when that notation could have been writen. Unless you are claravoiant

As an avid student of Militay firearms and a custom gumsmith of those same firearms for more than thirty years, I too can not accept somethings that isn't right, or in this case, is suspect.
Blair

R. McAuley 3014V
09-28-2007, 08:36 PM
CENSORED

kymmwilson
09-28-2007, 08:41 PM
much more plausable than an error
True That is a more logical a explanation, done by some unscruplious individual, the owner of said doc could easily have this proved at a local university,
but alas out of our hands.

i will reiterate have fun at nationals guys
kymm

Blair
09-28-2007, 08:49 PM
Richard McAuley,

Now, that's funny! I'm not going either.

I know you knew Col. Lindsey B. Henderson, he was the one that had the Lemat revolver serial # 8, among others. Perhaps you had a chans to see it? That was the only one I had a chance to play with.
Blair

Blair
09-29-2007, 11:29 AM
Kymm,

The Macon Arsinal document is, in itself, a good primary referance source.
Where they discribe "2 packages of Cartridges", I beieve these are exactly what they mean, Packets/Packages.
In the case of the breechloading Merrill carbine, a package of cartridges would have 10 pre loaded rounds raped in paper (or in some cases for the Merrill, foil) with an 11th tube having 12 muscket caps.
All sholder held firearms of breech or muzzle loading disign had ammunitin packaged in this manor. A case of ammo most often came with 100 of these packages to the case, equaling a total count of 1,000 round per case.

Revolvers packages of cartridges came 6 or sometime 12 to a package depending on the caliber. A case of revolver ammo usually came with 600 round to the case, either 100 packages of 6 round each or 50 packages of 12 rounds each.

Now that being said, I would think a package of ammo for a Lemat revolver would come with 9 pre loaded pistol cartridges and one smooth bore cartridge and probably 12 caps.
A case of Lemat ammunition, Mind you I am just guessing because I have never seen either, would probably come with 50 packages 10 round each.

Why would Macon Arsinal be receiving only 2 Packages of cartridges? Perhaps they had requested these amounts in anticipation of doing some tests. There again I am only guessing.
Being able to examining other document from Macon Arsinal from around the same time period may shed some light on that question.
Blair

R. McAuley 3014V
09-29-2007, 12:02 PM
CENSORED

kymmwilson
09-30-2007, 06:12 AM
i believe we are now geting into wording differances from 150 years ago to now ? the meanings have changed radically!
what is now "****" was then a acronim for for munure being stransported aboard ship , if left to sit on deck of hold it would inverably get wet and cause methane, this would build and the first latern in to the hold would blow the ship to pieces. thus
"ship,High, In,transport" stamped on all manure S.H.I.T.
sorry i digress
what was once a package might wel now be a crate
kymm

Blair
09-30-2007, 10:31 AM
Kymm,

A bit more acurrate discription might be, in 1942 a clip of 30-06 ammo for an M-1 Garand would be like a package of .58 cal. Rifle Musket ammo in 1862.

The Infantry cartridge box was disigned to hold 4, 10 round packages of .58 cal ammo.
A 1000 round case or box of ammo would supply 25 men with 40 round each. 4 cases to supply one standard strength Infantry Company and 40 cases to supply one Regiment of 10 Companies.
Firing 3 round a min. a Regiment may require its ammo replentished about every 15 min.
This might give you some idea as to the legistical problems of just supplying ammo.
This is also what scared Army Ordinance about the faster loading and firing self contained ammo. That and the fact that there may have so many different types and calibers of ammo needed. Misidentification was a major problem and concern.
Blair

R. McAuley 3014V
09-30-2007, 10:29 PM
CENSORED

kymmwilson
10-01-2007, 03:34 AM
most impressive to say the least
the carbines would not have been refered to on a invoice of arms purchased by csa as they where not part of the contract. this all agreed they would have been on there own as samples gifts or show or accompanied by a rep and in so would not have been on a invoice for pistols purchased, but if some of these had been shipped along side (outside of invoice) and bought privatly by officers or wealthy arming a calv unit there would then be cause for an invoice of amuunition if requested.
and i dont think that the confedaracy was in the habit of shipping and recieving from abroad gun ammunition in what we today consider a PACKAGE (as it list these for all the guns on the invoice (they where shipped in crates etc.) unless they where shipping in skiffs &dingheys under the arms of rowers
most likely this a change in the meaning of package between now and then. in all the ammo i have ever seen in shippment form is in solid wooden boxes in with others forming a pallet to use a modern term
kymm

Blair
10-01-2007, 01:08 PM
Richard McAuley,

Great info!
It would seem many more Lemat revolves did actually arive in the C S than I had imagined from my reasearch. I had tought prehaps 250 to 300. This would meet well within the N-SSA requirements for production. I, presonaly, do not know if the Lemat revolver is or is not approved for competition. The solid frame revolers like the Remington and R & S seem to be favored due to their potential for better accuracy. N-SSA approvial, however, does not matter in this discusion.

Kymmwilson,

I know that much of what has been shared with you during this discussion has not meant with your expectations.
I have to be honest with you, I am not altogether sure what your expectations are at this point.
I think what you'r wanting to do with the Lemat is great! From what I have seen of your work, you are doing a great job!
What more do you want?
It would seem that you already have a preconceived idea how history should be in suport of this Lemat carbine project of yours. So what is the point of anyone here offering you any additional information?
Kymm, if your expectations require the people on this forum to agreeing with your version of history... you'r going to have to come up with something more tangable than speculation.

I ask you again, "What more do you want", from this disgussion?
Blair

kymmwilson
10-01-2007, 07:16 PM
it has met my expectations and some
the only thing i expected was a great debate

comments are made, i question them.

kymm

Blair
10-01-2007, 08:40 PM
Kymm,

Questions are good. Many referance works have been suggested herein so that you may answer any questions by checking them out with your own research. Have you been to your local library to check out any of their referances? From your questions, I don't get the impression you have.
The sarcasm used in your questions is not to promote depate. It is intended to solicite argument.
Blair

kymmwilson
10-02-2007, 03:06 AM
Blair
truly no sarcasm was intended nor implied ,and i apoligise if it came across that way.
and as stated very early on i have four referance books on the subject and felt it a waist to buy a book in french i'll never be able to read.
Kymm

R. McAuley 3014V
10-02-2007, 10:19 PM
CENSORED

kymmwilson
10-03-2007, 04:20 AM
incredible,absolutly incredible ! how can one person know so much? i am not worthy!!!!or i have kids and a job demanding overtime all the time ,dohe............................................
I'm in complete agreement and have been down the road in practical terms with the swivel/lanyard attachments to be used miltarily they would last about one week.but there inclusion would speak to the effect they where intended for said market and if contract givin they would have been undoubtedly beefed up(albeit they where still better than offered on henrys).
i'm at work and have no dates with me but all the patent dwg's (belgian ,french and English)all are early, belgian and french in july 1861 and British 1862 i think november?correct me if wrong.
illustration for belgian carbine with no barrel band past the pistol lug band and spurred trigger gaurd with spur on forward end of t.g., and the french with a spur as on naval pistols and one barrel band a few inchs from muzzle . and the british patent dwg i have not seen but would imgagine it with final config of two bands and improved trigger gaurd. anybody?

not 100, but in the door(ok not a door but mouse hole). one step at a time.
thank you for the superhuman effort on your part
best regards to all
Kymm

kymmwilson
10-03-2007, 06:53 AM
P.S.
granted now i was reverse engineering from drawings and pictures(lemats By val forget& lemat pistols by Doug Addoms) but i was able to to identify no differances in the frame from pistol to carbine,other than model changes. at first i thought i was seeing a longer cylinder and longer rear section but these appeared to be false after scaling from each source(once again no access to originals.)
what are you detecting?
Kymm

R. McAuley 3014V
10-03-2007, 06:36 PM
CENSORED

kymmwilson
10-04-2007, 04:56 AM
the gun is a dead ringer in a bunch of areas ! there has to be family hertiage there. i had never seen one of these before .

Thanks Kymm

R. McAuley 3014V
10-04-2007, 08:04 AM
CENSORED

kymmwilson
10-04-2007, 10:51 PM
Chris Curtiss? I am not familiar with Him. sounds like a fun road road to drive down and that we would certainly turn some stones.
I am also trying to get more info from some other great source's but these take time, just as building a nice replica does and it pays off not to become negitive and cancerous as some do. i try to have fun at every endevour.
i have now become a hunter of all pinfire carbine ( like i needed one more thing ,dohe)
kymm

Blair
10-05-2007, 09:50 AM
Richard McAuley,Kymm,

These Lefaucheux revolving carbines are indeed very much like the Lemat. I suspect they do work together or at the least share ideas and disigns.

If you look closely at the Lefaucheux carbine photos you will be able to see that this model is of the post War type, sometimes called the 1865 model.
The primary difference is in how the barrel assembly is secured to the frame.
Both models barrels screw onto the cylinder pin.
The 1854 model is secured to the frame by a screw that comes in from the front, passes throught the barrel lug and screws into the lower front protion of the frame.
The 1865 model has an extention on that barrel lug that passes under the cylinder and butts up against the recoil shield of the frame. The screw that holds that in place also serves as the front trigger guard screw. A much stronger method of construction and more suitable to suport the longer heavier barrels found on these types of weapons.
I do not mean to imply that no Lefaucheux revolving carbines were made during the War years. I only intene to state that this firearm could not be associated with type of Confederate usage.
Blair

R. McAuley 3014V
10-05-2007, 08:40 PM
CENSORED

Blair
10-06-2007, 09:47 AM
Richard McAuley,

I believe you are correct.
I only wanted to point out the differences in the two Lefaucheux models and how they could be identified. I have seen hundreds of the post war models listed as Civil War and some even being marked with CS or CSA.
I believe the Lemat revolves/carbines converted to pin-fire come from the same time period. Perhaps with the help of Lefaucheux or maybe even by him. Without a patent for a loading gate until 1871, these pin-fire conversions would not have been very practical. When Lemat does secure a patent, the loading gate is a copy of what you see on the Lefaucheux guns, but the Lemat frame at the recoil shield will have to be beefed-up to allow for the hing for a loading gate. This is not speculation on my part. It is a simple fact based on the mechanical disign of the Civil War period Lemats.

I don't believe Kymm is wanting to build one of these pin-fire variations, so I supose the topic is mote. Except that it may help to establish a time-line for the Lemat.
Blair

R. McAuley 3014V
10-06-2007, 12:18 PM
CENSORED

Blair
10-06-2007, 02:03 PM
Richard M,

Again, I think you are correct.

Colt had the forsite to patent his "singal action" concept (among other componate parts) for a revolving firearm in as many Nations as were known to be arms makers as he could. (S&W/Rollin White don't do this with the bored through cylinder.)
In most cases this patent was a done deal and he had few problems with infringements.
I see no infringements of these concepts in Europiean arms in my reseach.
I believe, (and this is my opinion) why the Europian arms making communite worked so hard at developing the double action and/or self-cocking revolvers.

I don't think Colt has a problem with people making 'look alike" copies of his revolver so much as people were making copies of his patented "singal action" without his permition. Lefaucheux being one of the few exceptions. Colt's early work with Lefaucheux may have been a result of this.

Open top frames on revolvers is a rather weak method of producing a revolving firearm. Lefaucheux is one of the very last arms makers to change this to a solid frame like all other successful revolver makes had by 1873.
Blair

kymmwilson
10-06-2007, 05:46 PM
Blair
you are correct ,not lookling to build a pinfire but tracking the time line and simularities,very interesting.

Richard
Ouch!!!!!!
Phd no ?fishing no, digging in fertilizer no, just building muskets you should try it most relaxing and enjoyable,i'm sure you could do better than i.
but i dont think i can compare to your ability to research.
kymm

Blair
10-08-2007, 12:58 PM
Kymm,

You had stated earlier in this thread that you had built up a Palmetto M-1842.
I wanted to ask you what you did to get the "brass" furniture you needed to produce this model?
Blair

kymmwilson
10-09-2007, 03:17 AM
Blair
i started the 1842 because i had some original pieces for one including a brass barrel band (muzzle eop) and then started a quest for the rest , i got offered a sizable amount for the barrel band and let it go (dohe) but found excellent replicas at "the rifle shoppe" patients is a virtue!
I have sent you a personal email with picture
one of my favorite alltime muskets to build and shoot
kymm

kymmwilson
10-11-2007, 07:10 AM
i'm also gathering parts and data on the slant breach sharps carbine and have one waiting in que for my attention some time down the road but i'm very unfamiliar with the inner sliding breach ring on this? i hear there is a tool to help with this ?, being an 1853 with little attention having been succoured in the previous 150 years im thinkin it'll be nare say imovable
any ideas?
kymm

kymmwilson
10-14-2007, 01:10 PM
would any body have any info on cases(crate) for lemats or simiular ?
I am building a case for each and have gathered some 1/2 inch walnut and need to know basic configuration of a gun case . this will be my first foray into this type of wood work and need to know what is required, for say the corners etc? thanks
Kymm

R. McAuley 3014V
10-14-2007, 01:32 PM
CENSORED

kymmwilson
10-15-2007, 07:18 AM
WOW!!!!!!!!!! Rich

I nearly fell out of my chair reading that last bit !!!!!!!they where built for confederacy? and over one hundred!!!!!!
did i really read that?????????????

QUOTE "THEY WHERE MADE FOR THE CONFEDERACY and :D IT WOULD SEEM THE LEMAT CARBINE WAS MADE DURING CIVIL WAR IN OVER ONE HUNDRED qualifing FOR NSSA APROVAL" safety concerns being the only issue left.

so with that bridge crossed (hold on, i have to stop dancing to write)
maybe there could be a debate on how we could safely use these guns in a compitition all ther own(with enough interest) maybe like i suggested they could be mandatory wads over cylinders and a no hand past the trigger gaurd and a specified distance apart or a two by two post with a piece of plywood at head hiegth between all shooters ??
it would be neat to see a colt against a lemat on the line .



Rich i do have the the Adams Book (excellent) it was a must have

you are a God of information how do you do that??

Kymm

Edwin Flint, 8427
10-15-2007, 10:13 AM
Kymm,

Hate to burst your bubble of joy, but the fact that this is Adams opinion, not documented fact. Yes, they were MADE, but when they were made and actual delivery are 2 entirely different questions. I have no doubt, Lemat wanted to sell the Carbine to the Confederacy, but the statement was:


it would seem very likely that the LeMat carbine was made during the American Civil War

This is a supposition, not proof. 112 known Carbine specimins does not mean that 112 were delivered. I still want some proof in the form of arsenal records, payment records, etc., something concrete before I acknowledge this is an actual Confederate weapon.

Rich stated this about the Carbine:


To answer the question “were the LeMat carbines made for the Confederacy”? The answer is yes and no. It should be clear to everyone reading this thread that it was the contracts with the Confederacy that secured the financial support for Girard & Co to manufacture the LeMat revolvers, and the carbine, like the Baby Lemat revolver, were merely improvements on the LeMat arms system.

Essentially, I read this to say that because of the financing made available from the Confederate contracts for the pistols, Lemat was able to develope the Carbine. There is still no evidence of a contract WITH the Confederacy for the Carbine. Where is the proof of purchase, delivery, and or arsenal acceptence of these weapons. There is a lot of opinion and supposition, but NO PROOF.

Find me this and I will concede your position.

I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

kymmwilson
10-15-2007, 08:48 PM
Edwin
no bubble to burst, i think the proof sides with there existance within the confederacy (without contract )


there was no contract ,these where built in anticipation of contract !
they where built for and with the confederacy in mind.
and i will say i have 14 examples or so in the united states and a reciept of ammo ,and patent docs made with companies cover an all confederate contract all pointing towards proof of excitance yet your suppostions that they didnt exist with no documentaion pointing to this end?
show me a document stating they where not accepted ,built or used
we do agree to disagree

Kymm

kymmwilson
10-17-2007, 03:46 AM
Blair
you guys may disagree?
but all im looking for here is its lagitamacy as a confederate firearm!! and not sanction for nssa use



those whom do RESEARCH FOR A LIVING (not one but many)are saying yes
csa armoury document saying it was, this is a direct link and proof of use itself, there is no evidence it is forged.
historical surviving examples all in the states with no other explanation for arrival on our shores,
serial numbers professing qty,
manufacturing structure set up for confederate purposes,
timetable saying they where made during this time period well within the numbers.

you say ;the researchers are wrong?
document ?a fake or mistake(impossible mistake?) even though there is no evidance?
the existing examples where shipped in after the war although at this point they are nothing but very expensive paper weights ?
serial numbers inconclusive to qty?
and they built them but didn't ship them to the intended buying costumer?

and a need for every swinging gun they could get there hands on.
I think any forensic team would make this a slam dunk.

I will acquiesce i have no statue of R.E. Lee holding one(bummer) .

best to you Kymm

R. McAuley 3014V
10-30-2007, 10:04 PM
CENSORED

kymmwilson
11-01-2007, 07:43 AM
Way fun info !!
and wouldnt one of those cigars taste good even with a hidden message.
thanks

kymmwilson
01-21-2008, 03:24 AM
guys looking for a gunsmith to do some work on my lemat carbines?
ANY IDEAS
thank you Kymm

kymmwilson
09-11-2008, 05:05 PM
good day
I am now looking for a used reproduction lemat pistol or parts ? if anybody knows of one or parts let me know.
thanks Kymm

kymmwilson
02-25-2009, 05:15 AM
one is complete and functional and quite the beauty . only one of its kind on any range i've had it at ! sweet!!!!!!!!!!!!still workin it out.
[/list]

kymmwilson
03-20-2009, 06:19 AM
found a site where the confedrate registerd lemat carbine is 75,000 yeoch?

kymmwilson
03-20-2009, 06:20 AM
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... 0%26um%3D1 (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.jsmosby.com/images/store/LeMatCarbneCURt.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.jsmosby.com/cgi-bin/Display_Items.asp%3FCat%3D6%26Sub%3D7&usg=__GQNJXXD80-SQwqbDXsWtfNYane4=&h=248&w=370&sz=36&hl=en&start=26&um=1&tbnid=Spsc52KAFYggdM:&tbnh=82&tbnw=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlemat%2Bcarbine%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den %26sa%3DN%26start%3D20%26um%3D1)

kymmwilson
03-24-2009, 06:24 AM
i can pass a picture on to anybody interested in seeing the finished one ,aye send pm

LeMat1856
05-24-2009, 02:16 AM
.
. may 23 / 10:50pm


i found this while reading the comments here.

don't know if your debate was ever concluded, but i am also interested in creating a "lemat carbine" from my 2008 revolver.

looks like it's been done already.. the auction item went for $115,000
http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?sample=19015

the 'popout' additional image shows the completed item.. seems i'm a little rusty in my french, but that's what's used in discribing the item with serial #73 ...

Description:
The Finest Known Extremely Rare Model 1863 LeMat Percussion Carbine
This is a truly extraordinary example of a Model 1863 LeMat Percussion Carbine. This very rare carbine has a .44 caliber rifled upper barrel with ten-shot cylinder and a rifled, single-shot .50 caliber barrel. The hammer has a selector spur to fire the lower barrel. The carbine has a loading lever attached to the left side of the barrel lug and is fitted with a two-leaf, folding, rear sight. Sling rings are fitted to the lower barrel band and the stock. The barrel, frame, cylinder and buttplate have a blue finish and the carbine is fitted with a varnished, European walnut stock. The hammer and trigger are bright. The top barrel flat is marked: "SYSTme LEMAT Bte S.C.D.G. PARIS" ahead of the rear sight. The right barrel flat is numbered "73" and is stamped with the LeMAT 'LM/*" proof. The serial number, "73" is also visible on the right side of the frame and the cylinder. This rare carbine is pictured in THE CONFEDERATE LeMAT REVOLVER by Doug Adams and COLONEL FRANCIOS A. LEMAT by Marie-Antoinette Serpette. The carbine is accompanied by an appraisal letter by noted authority Eric Vaule. The letter states: "This specimen of the extremely rare percussion LeMat carbine is totally original with the exception of the loading lever catch which is an incorrect replacement. It retains most of the original blue finish and is in overall excellent condition. It is one of the greatest rarities in the highly desirable and collectible LeMat line with approximately 6 known specimens." He further states, "thus a current retail of $70,000.00 for this specimen, #73, is $70,000.00. 27th March, 1997, Eric Vaule."
[/url]

Edwin Flint, 8427
05-24-2009, 04:06 PM
The debate concluded with most agreeing to disagree. I still believe until definitive proof is found, the LeMat Carbine is "Confederate" only through its association the revolvers. Most carbines were made too late to make it into the CSA.

You may note, the auction house does not call it Confederate, nor does Mr. Vaule. They state it is an original LeMat Carbine. They state it is pictured in books about the LeMat revolver. I think this is the position most experts will take on it until further documentation of importation is found.

Besides, do you really think a combat used or even a Confederate weapon from the CW would have a rating of 97%. Not one I ever saw. The only CW weapons that good, never left the arsenal.

Mr. Wilson's auction house states one thing I would like to see, the proof of the contract for the Carbine with the Confederacy. Every thing I have read or heard acknowledge a revolver contract, but no Carbine contract. They also mention its inclusion in Dr. Murphy's book. The text with that book indicates Dr. Murphy had doubts about the importation of the Carbine but included it in the book anyway. (Probably because he was tired of explaining why he left it out of the first publication of his book.)

They are very rare and unique pieces of history. If adequate documentation shows up, I will be happy to concede. I will not accept auction house hype as proof of a confederate connection.

kymmwilson
05-26-2009, 07:20 PM
there may never be a defintive answer one way or the other
but there is proof they where built and available ,where they used?
no one knows
but its fun to consider and funner to shoot
and was a very fun project to take on but you must have cajoniesto cut up thousand dollar pistols

kymmwilson
05-26-2009, 08:47 PM
picture
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/forum/post/

kymmwilson
05-26-2009, 08:56 PM
try again for a picture
http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/8837

kymmwilson
04-06-2010, 07:57 PM
hey guys
the lemat carbine i built for myself will shortly be up for sell (not yet! but soon)
it was a fun project and i have had fun and it is an attention getter for sure
but my cannon projects and other projects are requiring my attention and regrettably i have decided to part ways
just toss me and email and i will notify you at a later date
questions welcome
chaio

kymmwilson
08-01-2011, 01:06 PM
ll

rachbobo
08-01-2011, 06:28 PM
In reply to John Holland's post. I build so called " Odd Ball " guns for my own pleasure.
I'm kinda new here but understand that N-SSA rules were written for a reason and who am I to contest them.
I'm not a Barracks Lawyer looking for any lame loophole to exploit.
I have a number of projects I'm working on and want to build them to N-SSA approved specs.
If they are rejected for any reason, no big deal. My great great or what ever grand children will still be able to drop a deer with what I build.
Just as the N-SSA passes on history, so will I to my family.
One well aimed shot is worth more than a burst of automatic fire that hits nothing.
Just my opinion.

Bill Cheek

John Holland
08-02-2011, 12:10 AM
You're right Bill....as the sayings go...."Aim small...Miss small". and...."One shot...One kill"

JDH

Butternut86
08-03-2011, 08:36 PM
How much were you looking to sell it for?

kymmwilson
08-26-2011, 04:20 PM
butternut
i am going to start bid at 7500 and hope it goes up as i almost have that much into it and almost 7 years time
the gun came out first rate(a new pieta lemat) (thanks bobby hoyt for barrel work that is outstanding) and the wood is 5 star fancy grade english walnut (checkered as orig in wrist)that i couldnt afford
and every detail was kept as close as possible (butplate was orig?reblued?)all to early pattern 1861 dwg of lemat carbine with hooked trigger gaurd.
i will try and post a pic tomorow

kymmwilson
08-28-2011, 10:08 AM
pic of complete carbine

kymmwilson
08-28-2011, 12:10 PM
full on shot

tonyb
08-28-2011, 01:28 PM
Beautiful, just beautiful. Awesome work.

kymmwilson
08-28-2011, 02:02 PM
glad to see your alive after irene

tonyb
08-28-2011, 04:48 PM
glad to see your alive after irene

Me?, I.m on the Northwest gulf side. but thanks

Dana Hayman
08-29-2011, 11:46 AM
Hello, I just happen to see one in Gunbroker, under Spencer's. This guy did a nice job.

kymmwilson
08-29-2011, 12:50 PM
my fav pic

kymmwilson
03-23-2013, 11:49 AM
my newest repo the rarest of confederate used carbines in the civil war

kymmwilson
03-02-2017, 10:22 AM
my newest repo the rarest of confederate used carbines in the civil war
Done and nice pair

RaiderANV
03-02-2017, 07:49 PM
Now this.......is beyond neat! Thanks for sharing!

kymmwilson
03-03-2017, 10:52 AM
Crated and tools

CAGerringer
03-03-2017, 06:53 PM
WoW! Now that is a piece of art, Mr. Wilson.
I don't know what you do for a living, but you have a real talent for this!
I'm afraid to ask what you charge for a carbine...but come on! Let us know!
Respectfully,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

kymmwilson
03-04-2017, 11:52 AM
Gerringer
thank you
I will not make any more (to much work)
i did how ever design a semi auto ww2 that I laid out and designed every piece of and I am getting offers to have produced