Remington 1858 New Army

[StonewallSharpeson]

Skirmishers,
I am looking to purchase an Uberti 1858 Remington soon, so I've started looking for ammo molds. My question is: What types of balls did this weapon use? I know that this .44 pistol was often loaded with .451 round balls, but I am also looking for an appropriate "elongated ball" (as they called them) mold. My interest is historically accurate loads.
Can you please give me some specs on appropriate elongated balls, and where I can find molds for such a round.
These are the molds/rounds I've been looking at so far:
Lee .445, .451, and .454 RBs: http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casti...und-ball-mold/
Lee .450 EB: http://leeprecision.com/bullet-casti...l-cap-and-ball
Lyman .445, .451, and .454 RBs: http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/b...all-moulds.php
Blockade Runner "Colt Style" (supposedly original-based) EB mold: http://www.blockaderunner.com/Catalog/catpg6.htm
scroll down about 10% or search (control + F for windows or command + F for mac users) for "colt style"
I appreciate the help,
StonewallSharpeson

[Curt]

Hallo!

I have a new and unused one still in factory oil I am selling and can likely save you some Yankee Greenbacks.

But to answer your question, while they vary a bit due to Italian QC issues in terms of the individual cylinder chambers, force cone, and barrel... Uberti Remington M1863 New Model Army's
(incorrect Hobbyism "M1858") tend to run .450 chambers (some may vary a wee tad up or down.. ) and a .451 or .452 barrel.

Civil War Period cartridges varied a bit by arsenal, factory, contractor, and the size and weight of the "heeled' type conical bullet.
Oh say... 199, 204, 220, 236, 238, or 257 grain in .446, .455, .458, or .460 in diameter.
And it gets complicated as the Government sometimes supplied arsenal-made bullets to make into cartridges.

Ideally, the "theory" was that the "standard" was .44 and up to a point any .44 could conceivable use whatever .44 cartridge the Ordnance folks issued. However, obvious some .44 revolvers although ".44's were slightly larger or smaller than other makers. The US and its CS clone Ordnance Manual called for a 30 grain charge, 216 grain bullet of 0.46.

Perhaps oddly, Remington did not make their own ammunition, but largely relied on Johnston & Dow.

Finding a true .44 conical heeled bullet these daze is hard.

For many years I struggled with Rapine making order calls they did not answer their phone for, or never returned multiple messages. Nor did they fill orders done by mail. Anyways, Rapine offered, used to offer a ".44 Colt Conversion' bullet in .451 210 grain that was okay. Albeit a tad smallish it was a conical and it was heeled. Metallic conversions of CW C & B revolvers simply had their bullets getting a copper cartridge built around them.
Rapine also had a conical ".45 Auto" in .452 215 grain.

Rapine aside, the best and easiest .44 conical heeled bullet is the old Dixie "hair straighter" crude 'pliers' type mold they call a .454 Remington.

I just picked up one of the Pedersoli Colt presentation or caser type molds in .44 that throws a .44 conical and .44 ball. It is more for decoration, and now new pricey, but it will do mildly okay as a mold for a rare bullet. I have not cast any yet to measure, but I am assuming it is sized for the modern Italian .44 sizes and not the CW original size bullet.

And last...

Fudging a bit on Period Correctness....

There are two modern versions, a compromise. And that is Lee's double cavity .450 200 grain bullet. There are two versions, a more blunt round ose, and a slightly more pointed round nose conical.

I have not tried them yet, and will not be getting to a range until next week some time. I am a bit suspicious on accuracy though- their being .450's in a .450 chamber with a .452 bore.
I am curious as to whether a 30 grain charge on a pure lead bullet will obdurate it enough to shoot well.

I would have to some research as it has been years since I read about it, but before the Italians came out with Metallic Conversion versions of the CW C & B revolvers, some lads were shooting originals and had gone to hollow based conicals using the Minie or Pritchett concept to deal with the larger original bore sizes and the lack of Period sized molds.

Curt

[Maillemaker]

Most people shoot these with round ball these days. .454 is the most common, but my Uberti Walker shoots .457. The key is that a small lead ring should be shaved off when you drive the ball home. I use Lee round ball molds and find them to work very well.

Curt gave some good info about period-style heeled bullets.

I have heard, but cannot confirm, that rifling twist rates in modern reproductions are optimized for round ball and may not work well with period-style conicals if you choose one that is too long.

Steve

[Chris Sweeney]

One common problem is that the cylinder bores tend to be smaller than the barrels. If you cram a .454 ball into a .450 cylinder, you now have an out-of round ball that may be undersize for your barrel. Unless you get lucky and get a matched set (or buy one of them big-buck Germans), most of the really competitive shooters ( and a lot of us not-so-competitive shooters) will get the cylinders honed out to the barrel size or a tad larger. Then there's timing, and they often need trigger polishing, and a taller front sight and . . .

[Curt]

Hallo!

For the longest time, everyone I knew in the N-SSA (myself included) was of a modern competitive bent, and fiddled with ball size and weight, configuration, diameter, lube mixes, powder charges, and rifling types, twists, and depths to achieve optimum target performance from their long arms.

But, I know a few who strive to shoot a Period cartridge in a Period bore (as far as possible) for the "more historic' rather than the "modern competitive" side.

As shared, it can get really complicated fast when it comes to Italian reproductions, and especially Italian reproduction revolvers beyond just bore size. As MM above shared, there is
rifling twist.

Historically, the Italians started out the repro business in the face of a determined opposition or resistance from Civil War arms collectors, historians, and writers that reproducing again CW revolvers would lead to wide spread fakery and counterfeiting. So, one of the "compromises" was to changed the number of grooves and/or change the direction of the rifling twist to be a dead giveaway.

Another was a matter of production costs and economics.... so even or straight button cut rifling replaced the gain twist brooch cut rifling of original Colt and Remington revolvers.

AND, in the knowledge base and climate of the 1950's and 1960's, it seemed that folks did not realize that martial arms were fed with arsenal or contract made cartridge packs or packets made with conical bullets and not everybody "running round ball" home-making their own (kind of a "civilian' thing for folks too cheap or too far from stores to buy commercial ammunition).

Say what?

Original Colt and Remington revolvers were made with well-finished, brooch cut rifling that was deeper at the muzzle than it was at the breech. For example, original Remington M1863 New Model Army revolvers had a cylinder end rifling twist of 1:60 and 1:18 at the muzzle.
So, they shot conicals fairly well or well enough for the 25 yard concept with 30 grains per Ordnance or sometimes in the mid to upper 20's...and setting aside Colt's flimsy rear sight notch on the hammer nose that disappears and eliminates one's sight picture when the trigger is pulled. Or, the slightly better 'groove' in the Remington's upper frame."

BUT, with their uniform depth rifling, Pietta uses a 1:30 twist and Uberti a 1:32. Both shoot a round ball best, for the longer a conical is, the less stable it is in a faster twist (in general the opposite of a round ball in a fast twist).

Lads I know will compromise on the conicals, by trying to cut the velocity by reducing the powder charge down from the Ordnance spec of 30, down to 25, 21, 18, or 15 for example.

Yeah, somewhat of a "historical mess." Meaning, for the lads who want to shoot a historical cartridge with the Period charge, bullet, and cartridge form are largely defeated by Italian revolvers not being historical copies. Which leaves the modern shooters looking to be "competitive" and so they shoot a round ball that CW soldiers were not issued.

And last.. I have not followed it as I do not shoot sight modified 'target' versions of CW revolvers. Anyways, sights aside, for the extra cost, one can buy "target revolvers" with gain twist rifling. I would have to look it up, but believe a similar concept is what Pedersoli now calls their "Pedersoli Premium Match Grade" (PPMG) and/or 'Premium Match Grade" (PMG). barrel line.

Curt

[Blair]

Davide Pedersoli just had a new, Highly accurate NM-1863 Remington revolver approved by the N-SSA.
Hopefully with the new formation of IFG-NA these will become available here in the USA.
I wish I could provide more information at this time.
However, one of these two links may offer you help on finding out for yourself.

info@davidepedersoli.com
www.davide-pedersoli.com

My best,
Blair

[Curt]

Hallo!

Thanks, Herr Blair!

I was in Italy in November and have my "Speak Italian" books hand, so I thought I would have to translate DP's web site page. But then I found the "English" button.

Here is the listing from the Pedersoli site:



"Remington Pattern

After the success obtained in the target shooting with Rogers & Spencer “Pedersoli” Target model and under specific requirements from shooters, we introduced this new target revolver, produced on the Remington model. The materials used are of the best quality, enhancing the ballistic characteristics of the barrel, of the cylinder and of the trigger set mechanism. The gun has been expressly “customized” by our crafts-workers and shooters, with the purpose to give the gun a good functionality with the very first use. The non-reflecting barrel, the anti-wear cylinder and the rifling twist have been designed to give the shooter the best chance."

Curt

[jonk]

One consideration as others have hinted at is to make sure to check cylinder diameter. Thing is, with an oversized round ball, it starts easily and the cylinder just shaves a bit off. Brush that away and you're good to go. But with a conical, a square base needs to be slightly undersized as compared to the cylinder to start easily; otherwise you end up mashing a bullet in at a slight angle, shaving some off one side or the other. Accordingly, I have only found the Lee .450 mold to work in my revolvers. Granted, you could have the cylinders reamed as mentioned to permit seating a larger bullet, or perhaps just the ends of the cylinder reamed to allow it to start straight; however, it is a known trade off that may or may not work for you. I've seen some guys do really well with the conicals; my revolver does ok with them (also a REmington copy), but really prefers round balls. So the question is, what do you want to acheive? Historical accuracy or just plain accuracy? I would likely want to work up a load for both.

[Curt]

Hallo!

Agreed.

IMHO...

One can get a more "historical" experience in using a CW Period cartridge even in an Italian repro rifle-musket or rifle (there are differences, such as Enfields have uniform depth rifling instead of progressive, etc.).
Some lads just want to get the historical "feel" of a Period cartridge and make up a batch just to shoot or plink. Kind of simulation if not an emulation of what a CW soldier had the capability of doing (setting aside Period issues like lack of marksmanship training or paper target experience, etc.). Or just the feel of a full CW cartridge's ball and charge.
Some few lads forego tweaking the most accurate load possible by changing rifling, changing bullets, or changing powder chargers and like to enter N-SSA competition with a more "Period" cartridge.

Revolvers are so much more complicated due to the differences between modern Italian repro's and originals. Meaning, a CW era revolver cartridge in a repro (NUG) will not perform the same as it did in an original revolver (even a minty and not worn out one).

And on a tangent.. sometimes it is neat to see what a weapon can do actually do.
Once Upon a Time I was listening to a presentation from two Berdan Sharpshooter reenactors at Antietam instructing the crowd. One said that the Sharps NM1859 Rifle fired a six inch bullet. And with their Sharps NM1859 Rifles, could hit targets out to one (1) mile. It seemed to me that the reenactor had never live fired his repro Sharps to see what they actually could do...



Curt

[Maillemaker]

And on a tangent.. sometimes it is neat to see what a weapon can do actually do.

I can tell ya this: A couple of skirmishes ago I hit a man-sized steel target at 120 yards with my 6th shot off hand (throwaway - the other 5 went on the paper target).



Steve