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Thread: Minie ball thoughts

  1. #21
    PoorJack is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Van Kauwenbergh, 101 View Post
    A translated version of the 1854 Lorenz manual is on-line at http://acwsa.org/Documents/LorenzManualTranslation.pdf The specs and trajectory information is at the back.
    Reference link appreciated, but doesn't answer the question. Anybody currently casting and competing with a Lorenz bullet?
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  2. #22
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    I lubed the Moose Wilkinson the same way, it shot well for the first 4-5 shots then got crunchy and group opened way up.

    Steve- what are you shooting them out of. My 3 band didn't do well with them.
    I shoot them in my Euroarms P53 with Whitacre barrel - 1:72 twist with progressive depth rifling, as I recall.

    I also shot them in my JRA Richmond Carbine with Hoyt barrel, but I have switched over to my Pedersoli 1859 Sharps. The Sharps isn't quite as accurate but I love shooting it.

    Steve

  3. #23
    Don Dixon is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoorJack View Post
    AAAnnnnnd back to the original question posited, Has anyone, or Does any shoot the Original style Lorenz bullet similar to that I posted in a link to a British muzzleloader board?
    What don't you understand about:

    1. The bullet drawing you cited from the British MLAGB site is not a Wilkinson or Lorenz bullet, no matter what it may have been called.

    2. It was a modern -- as in done about 15 years ago -- compression bullet design by Greg Edington, and was intended for use in Parker Hale's Whitworth reproduction rifle. It is not an "Original style Lorenz bullet."

    3. Since the Whitworth is not an approved N-SSA rifle in either original or reproduction form, we can't shoot them in N-SSA competition. Consequently, we're not going to have competition experience with that bullet in N-SSA matches. For fun maybe, but I don't think that Greg made and sold very many of the moulds. The bullet would have been of more interest to someone who shot long gun in Muzzle Loader Associaitons International Committee (MLAIC) international style competition.

    Regards,
    Don Dixon
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  4. #24
    PoorJack is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Dixon View Post
    What don't you understand about:

    1. The bullet drawing you cited from the British MLAGB site is not a Wilkinson or Lorenz bullet, no matter what it may have been called.

    2. It was a modern -- as in done about 15 years ago -- compression bullet design by Greg Edington, and was intended for use in Parker Hale's Whitworth reproduction rifle. It is not an "Original style Lorenz bullet."

    3. Since the Whitworth is not an approved N-SSA rifle in either original or reproduction form, we can't shoot them in N-SSA competition. Consequently, we're not going to have competition experience with that bullet in N-SSA matches. For fun maybe, but I don't think that Greg made and sold very many of the moulds. The bullet would have been of more interest to someone who shot long gun in Muzzle Loader Associaitons International Committee (MLAIC) international style competition.

    Regards,
    Don Dixon
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    The original post was about the original Lorenz bullet and if anyone has used it in competition. The link to the british site was for comparison purposes with illustration of Edington's variation on the Lorenz in 45cal.

    Note this bullet from Pedersoli-
    https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/riv...evolution.html
    Note two deep compression grooves and read the last paragraph of the article. From the historic comparisons, the Lorenz had higher MV, higher BC, flatter trajectory and better efficiency. Granted, this was for the 54cal version, but some of those characteristics should still be present in a 58cal version.

    The Moose bullet is a version of the Picket bullet with a compression groove. And yes, Edington did make some molds. I haven't played any with a 2 groove Edington nor have I personally seen a mold. The "Moose Wilkinson" picket with one groove didn't shoot very well out of my P53 Euroarms with original barrel. My guess is from the experiments, it was having fouling issues pretty quickly. So Don, while you are well versed in the Lorenz and AustroHungarian muskets, what part of my question is not obvious? In the search for a bullet that is reliably stable with less fouling issues, has anyone played with the ORIGINAL style Lorenz in 58cal with respect to our barrels and competition format?
    Last edited by PoorJack; 12-18-2017 at 09:23 AM.
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  5. #25
    Don Dixon is offline
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    As I said in my posts above I have used the Lorenz design in competition -- for about 20 years. Greg Edington designed and had Lee manufacture moulds for both .54 and .58 caliber two groove compression bullets. In comparing measured drawings, they were pretty close to Lorenz's original design. Nothing else out there is. The k.k. Army swaged its bullets, and I you could find one of the moulds that the Vienna arsenal made for the Confederates you probably wouldn't want to use it. I started shooting Greg's bullets after the moulds came out, and they shot very well in my Pattern 1858 .577 caliber Enfields, my .58 caliber S&S Richmond carbine, and my .54 caliber Muster 1854 Dixie Jägerstutzen reproduction; more accurate and easier to cast than Minies once I learned how to shoot them. When Greg came out with the single groove compression bullet moulds in .54 and .58 caliber I started using them after I tested them. The single groove bullet is very effective at N-SSA shooting distances: 50 and 100 yards. If I was going to compete at longer distances, I would use the two groove bullet.

    I haven't been in a posiiton to observe what you are doing with your bullets and firearm. But, you should not have fouling issues with the Lorenz compression design, assuming that:

    1. The bore of your weapon is properly made and in good order. If it is rough, it will foul with any bullet you use. System Lorenz compression bullets foul less than anything else out there since they are very effective at scraping the crud out of barrels when they are fired. I have shot more than 100 rounds in practice, and the last bullets went down the bore just as smoothly as the first (i..e., essentially zero fouling).

    2. Use only dead soft pure lead to cast your compression bullets. Harder lead will not properly compress.

    3. Look to the fit of the bullet to your bore. No more than .001-.002 inches under bore size. Measure the bore with machinist's plug gauges, not with a dial caliper. And, measure the bullets. Spray the bullets with lube that you would use to lubricate and size modern brass cases (Dillon Case Lubricant works well), and use a push through sizing die to size the bullets; not a lubrisizer. The lubrisizer will partially compress the bullets in the sizing process. Wipe the lubricant off of the bullets after they are sized so that they don't pick up too much powder in the cartridge tube.

    4. Use very soft lubricant (I recommend MCM). Don't fill the compression grooves -- they are NOT lubrication grooves -- when lubricating the bullets. If the groove(s) is filled with lube it(they) can't compress to take the rifling, and the shot will be inaccurate to very inaccurate. Given the fit of bullet to bore, lube in the compression grooves is essentially not compressible.

    5. Use enough powder. I use 45 grains of Swiss FFFg for both .54 and .58 caliber loads. That would equate to a bit more than 50 grains of GOEX FFFg. Swiss powder fouls less than anything else out there, and based upon my chronograph testing gives extremely consistent standard deviations from lot to lot. A load that works well in the cool dampness of spring, may not work well in the hot dry summer. So, use enough powder to ensure compression of the bullet under all climatic conditions. If you're recoil shy you're out of luck. Having been brought up shooting M-14 National Match rifles for the U.S. Army and full bore target rifles, I'm not.

    If this doesn't work, re-read it. If it still doesn't work, you need a new barrel, or perhaps a new shooter.

    Regards,
    Don Dixon
    2881V

  6. #26
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    We need a LIKE button!!! Great post Don
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  7. #27
    PoorJack is offline
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    Don-

    As stated, I tried the Moose version in my P53 Euroarms Enfield-

    1) Bore looks ok, measured 580. Rapine trash cans shoot into just under 2in before I quit messing with that gun. Moose Wilksons shot about the same with 45gr 3f Goex, Beeswax/Crisco 50/50 only on the bottom groove as shown in pic earlier in thread. Compression groove was clean. Started fouling out at about 5-7 shots and got progressively worse. I think a better barrel may be in order for that musket, but my Colts both shoot a similar load of 3f OE and LL into an inch. My musketoon has a Whitacre barrel and it's a great shooter. The PH 2 band is stock, but it shoots with the Colts and musketoon. Again, problem with Trash can is stability past 50. None of my guns seem to like the Hogdon much. No combination I've tested yet will match the trash cans at 50.

    2) I only use dead soft as I can get for muskets. My source is XRay room lead.

    3) Bullets I was sent were sized to 579 and dipped in lube I was using at the time (50/50 Crisco/Bees).

    4) I would love to try the Lorenz as originally designed in 58cal with my current powder and lube combo. I'm using 3f and 2f Old E with much less fouling and Lens Lube. As stated before, the Rapine TC will shoot into 1in in both my Colt Contracts and my PHs are shooting the Lee version into a similar size hole. BUT this bullet is not stable at 100yds, again, I'd love to try something else. For the PHs, I've tried the 575213 and a "New" Minie by Lee. The 575213 were ok, but not spectacular and the Lee, well, forget it. Yes, agreed, do not fill compression grooves, but I really want to try a two compression groove bullet. Anybody making a mold currently?

    5) In my limited trial of the Moose version, I didn't have enough bullets to do a ladder test AND all I had for powder at the time was Goex 3f. I'm currently using OE as it's pretty close to Swiss in terms of MV consistency and fouling but more to that point, there's a Goex distributor 30mi from my house and his price is same as Back Creek. That means I'm not limited to Nationals visits to get powder. While I don't have a chrono at the time, threads over on a black powder cart gun board regarding MV consistency of a number of brands of powder were quite interesting. Swiss was tops followed closely by OE. Goex std and others were nowhere nearly as consistent. Fouling was least with Swiss and OE. Schutzen was pretty dirty.

    I'd be game to try a 2 groove Lorenz bullet if I could get a mold. Recoil shy?? Don't have much problem with 500gr FMJ in my 45/70 at 1800fps in my Siamese Mauser. Yeah, it'll thump good on both ends. New shooter, now that's always up for debate I do agree that the Enfield may need a new barrel, but with 2 Colts, a PH, and musketoon shooting as well as they do, I'm thinking that gun is way down my priority list. What is on my list is getting stable at 100yds.
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  8. #28
    Smokepole50 is offline
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    Don......do you know of any reason we can't make a copy of the single groove bullet you posted a picture of?

  9. #29
    John Holland is offline Moderator
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    You might be able to get a 2-groove mould from Mike Owsiak. His moulds are Bronze and very high quality. That is, if anyone can put you in contact with him. He lived in NJ as I remember, and was with the Union Valley Vol's. I don't know if he is still a member, or not, as I haven't seen him at Nationals for a while.

  10. #30
    Don Dixon is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokepole50 View Post
    Don......do you know of any reason we can't make a copy of the single groove bullet you posted a picture of?
    Smokepole50 and John,

    I believe that the bullet in the photo was one of Greg's designs. Lee is no longer making them, and hasn't in some time. Since Greg copywrote his designs, Lee would need his permission, even if they wanted to make them again. NEI also made a compression bullet mould, but they are now out of business. The Moose single compression groove bullet will probably produce essentially the same results using proper loading procedures.

    Compression bullet moulds are somewhat complicated to make. The compression grooves are so deep that the moulds can't be cut on a lathe. You have to make a cherry. That puts them outside the working range of most custom mould makers and into the range of a shop that does production quantities. Believe me, I've asked several competent custom mould makers, and they said they could not make a one-off mould.

    Since they use cherry's, I've asked the Moose folks about making a .547 inch/13.9 mm mould so that I would have a one or two groove compression bullet that would fit the original System Lorenz rifles I collect. But, there has been no interest/response on their part. I'll ask the retorical question of how many moulds would one have to make to recover the cost of making up a cheery and equipment and then make a reasonable profit?

    Regards,
    Don Dixon
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