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Thread: Smith enigma

  1. #21
    PoorJack is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAGerringer View Post
    Sorry, John. I am just concerned that Poor Jack will "catastrophicly failure himself up", if he keeps shooting these faulty rounds.
    Respectfully,
    Charlie Gerringer
    Old Dominion Dragoons
    Let's be absolutely clear here- I am TRYING TO SOLVE A PROBLEM and that entails some experimentation NOT just go on blithely banging away with the issue. There is no way to know if the problem is solved without shooting.

    But let's revisit the known and the commonality-

    Known and Common-
    3 separate Smiths-
    3 separate shooters
    Same bullets used prior to onset of problem
    Same cases used prior to onset of problem
    Same caps used prior to onset of problem
    Same powder used prior to onset (experiment with original 3fg Goex from same can as prior to Old Enysford switch)
    Powder charge- 24gr 3fg, 25 3fg, 28 3fg and 31 3fg. (Yeah 31 sounds high, but it gave best groups)

    Changed-
    LUBE
    Powder- Old Enysford 3fg, but have experimented with the same lot of 3fg Goex from the same can prior to powder switch and still have the problem so even though it's on this list, it's ruled out because the problem occurs with either powder.

    Other things checked-
    Case lengths of black plastic (new and used), orange urethane, brass
    Chamber length of one Pietta (near as I can measure with tools at hand, about 1.43 and chamber is cut square to rifling.

    Again, I'm coming back down on lube as it's the only change common to all guns, cases, and load levels.
    "A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"
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  2. #22
    bobanderson is offline
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    If it IS the lube, can you turn off the result by switching back to your old lube? That seems like an overly simple solution.

    I own a good shooting Smith, but it sits in the rack in favor of a Maynard and a Sharps, so pardon my well intentioned comments.

    This sounds like an over pressure reaction, so I’m leaning toward a different cause. For instance, have you introduced new lead to your loads, or maybe a new mould, even if it is the same listed size as the prior ones? If so, do you use a sizer of some kind to make your bullets somewhere near the usual .515 to .518 diameter you need for a CW era 50 caliber, or are you a dip luber?

    I’m thinking that you have oversized bullets with hard lead, say about .520 or more, that is causing a pressure spike during ignition. I shoot very hard lead, but I run them through a Lyman or a Starr sizer to get them down to .518.

    I have seen a Smith partially unlock during firing, but in that instance, it was a maintenance problem. There was foreign material between the latch and the receiver that prevented it from closing all the way.
    Bob Anderson
    Ordnance Sergeant
    Company C, 1st Michigan Volunteer Infantry
    Small Arms Committee

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on.
    I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
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  3. #23
    bobanderson is offline
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    To continue my last post, if all that is OK, I’d replace the top latch. Maybe it has somehow lost its temper and isn’t holding as tightly as a new one.

    Another clue might be the group going lower on the target. If you shoot a higher pressure load, will the bullet leave the barrel faster and then shoot lower due to reduced time in the barrel?

    A chronograph should tell you if you have velocity differences with these loads.
    Bob Anderson
    Ordnance Sergeant
    Company C, 1st Michigan Volunteer Infantry
    Small Arms Committee

    "I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a hand on.
    I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them."
    - John Wayne in "The Shootist", 1976

  4. #24
    PoorJack is offline
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    Bob- Since this occurs with all three Smiths, the source has to be in the ammo someplace. If it was top strap related, why all three at one time?

    Lead is from the same pile I've been working through for the past year. I don't use much "carbine" lead straight up as I'm not absolutely certain as to the actual alloy so I mix the range scrap in proportions of about 3lb pure to 1lb scrap. One thing I did play with a while back was how differing alloys cast different diameter bullets from the same mold. The alloy I was messing with was a combination of 80% pure lead mixed with 20% wheel weight. I have a NOE mold that casts about 517+ to 518 with pure lead, with straight wheel weight, it's out to 520+. With the experimental alloy, I was able to consistently cast at .519. This was just an experiment done on a whim to see just how much control could be exterted through alloy composition. Problem with this was the actual alloy of the wheel weight was unknown. This test batch of alloy was drained and made into ingots, marked and set aside from my normal stash of pure lead. So long story short, I shoot pure lead for the most part with some range scrap mixed in for my carbines and from what I've been able to determine short of having a hardness tester, it's not much harder than pure and way softer than straight up wheel weight and I've been shooting this alloy all along prior to the issue so I'm pretty certain it isn't my lead.

    A chronograph is now on my "must buy" list. It would tell the tale of what's happening but so far, I'm stuck with observing results. The group moving low on the target happens when the gun is jumping open so I think it's from the lube running out, the pressure building internally and velocity falling. When the gun starts to jump, it doesn't go back to normal until a very thorough barrel scrub, again, leading me to think about lube issues. So yeah, I'm going to look at the lube this weekend.

    As to the "other" carbines, a Maynard feels like a Red Ryder in my hands and sorry, just don't like it. A Sharps on the other hand, well, I could be pursuaded without much difficulty at this point.
    "A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"
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  5. #25
    Lou Lou Lou is offline
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    Dave
    let me be the first to offer to take the three bad Smiths for $150😀
    Lou Lou Lou Ruggiero
    Tammany Regt-42nd NYVI

  6. #26
    Kevin Tinny is offline
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    Hello, again, Poor Jack:

    Your "communality" listing included three different shooters.
    Just to be clear, did all three experience the same self-opening problem, please?

    Also, have you tried ANY ONE ELSE's loaded ammo, especially witb BRASS cases, and if so, what happened, please?

    If the brass cased loads of the other shooter worked fine in your gun AND your BRASS cased loads had MORE closing resistance, that should be a place for study.

    Respectfully,
    Kevin Tinny

  7. #27
    PoorJack is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Tinny View Post
    Hello, again, Poor Jack:

    Your "communality" listing included three different shooters.
    Just to be clear, did all three experience the same self-opening problem, please?

    Also, have you tried ANY ONE ELSE's loaded ammo, especially witb BRASS cases, and if so, what happened, please?

    If the brass cased loads of the other shooter worked fine in your gun AND your BRASS cased loads had MORE closing resistance, that should be a place for study.

    Respectfully,
    Kevin Tinny
    Yes on each experiencing the issue.
    Have shot plastic cased ammo from another skirmisher through each gun with no issue. Haven't shot anyone else's brass cases but measurements of my cases and chamber indicate the shouldn't be an issue and the guns all close fine on my brass cases.
    "A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"
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  8. #28
    Kevin Tinny is offline
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    Thanks, Jack:

    Based upon the other plastc guy's cases not being a problem, at this time my money is on over length plastic cases. But, if the powder charge is compressed, especially 3F and an over diameter bullet is combined, pressures WILL cause distorted plastic cases that will not subsequently chamber AND the very self opening condition you observe.

    If you got smaller groups with Len's, it would be very strange that lube, alone, could be the cause. In over 50 years of active b-p, cast, lubed bullet work, I don't see how lube could do this mechanical thing.

    I want to recall that one poster said he had his Pietta Smith self-open.
    If you revert to the other lube with no issues.......

    Kevin
    Last edited by Kevin Tinny; 10-30-2017 at 04:08 PM.

  9. #29
    Kevin Tinny is offline
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    Hello, Poor Jack:

    If you have learned more and perhaps solved your problem, please share details.

    Very respectfully,
    Kevin Tinny

  10. #30
    PoorJack is offline
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    This weekends results-

    The plastic cases have been measured. Nominal chamber length is 1.4in and mine, as close as I can measure, is about 1.43. Measured plastic cases, both black and orange urethane. The black ones are anywhere from 1.4 to 1.45, even the ones that are known not to cause an issue from the previous owner of the gun. The orange ones about the same. Bore was checked for leading and there is no accumulated lead in the bore. Bore was slugged and looks to take a 516 bullet, just like the previous owner said.

    So the lube change experiment yielded no success. Two loads were tested, both with 24gr 3fg OE lubed with 50/50 Crisco/Beeswax and a spoonful EVO. One load was brass case, other black plastic measured to be between 1.41 to 1.44. Bullets were the Lee 518 and NOE modified 50/70, both cast pure lead, both sized to 516 and checked after sizing. Test was run offhand at 25yds since I wasn't really looking at accuracy, just does the gun jump open. First five shots went into one big ragged hole with the Lee bullet in brass cases. The next five started jumping and the last two opened the gun completely. Of course, the last five shots were nowhere near POA and the first five shots. Cleaned and brushed the bore. Repeated with 50/70 in black plastic. Very similar results. First five were one big ragged hole (this gun will be a true tack driver if I can get it sorted) and the same results as with the brass cases with the last two jumping completely open. The black plastic cases were specifically chosen to have clean sides. I mention this because those first five cases came out looking normal. The next five when the gun started jumping showed a ring on the case side where the plastic tried to flow into the joint in the receiver and the ring was pronounced on the last two where the gun opened completely. So two things were learned, it's not lube related and the gun is capable of outstanding accuracy if this problem can be sorted.
    "A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"
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