law enforcement hold on flintlock

[MR. GADGET]

All ArmiSport muzzle loading arms imported into the United States come in with a manufacturer's serial number.

Correct.
That is there due to import laws.
the other big reason is a CYA, insurance, liability, warranty, and in the case of a recall needed or updates.

[MR. GADGET]

Yes, that is correct. Removing, altering, etc serial numbers that are on firearms is against Federal law and most state laws as well. Reproduction muzzle loaders ae not considered "firearms" under Federal law. State laws vary.

To add to that.

There is an ATF form needed and can be used to mark, remove and replace or relocate a SN if needed.
they are done all the time when guns are damaged, recovered, or other reasons.

[MR. GADGET]

Statistics to back this up please. Actually I'd be pleased to hear about an example

it is not statistics, it is import laws and federal regs along with business practices.

It is in no way to be able to tell the difference in real or fakes or because your local LEO wants a SN on the gun.

Find out first hand and talk to DP about the guns or regs.
They are international and must follow laws for many countries that they import to and from.
Has nothing to do with fake guns as you are leading people to believe. ..

Or call ATF.

In fact if I wanted to make a muzzleloader, an AR15 or AK47...... there is no need for a SN on the gun.
And that follows ATF rules.

as for relocating or correcting and placing a sn on the gun. Any MFG can do that and most good smiths building or rebuilding guns have a MFG FFL.

[MR. GADGET]

Stistics to back this up please. Actually I'd be pleased to hear about an example

FYI
if you want to see it at any point check out you local shop for some C&R guns.
The most commonly changed SN case is the import guns that have a SN located on the barrel.
Per ATF it must be located on the reciever of the gun. Add to that the letters are sometimes none standard and whe they relocat the SN it is corrected to english or can be changed completely.
You will also see the importer adding there name recorded address for importation.
There have been 100s of thousands Nagants, AK, SKS and mauser guns done this way.

On the other side of things there are many smiths that move a SN like on a browning hipower to checker the front strap or frame. You also see this happen with a bad guy grinding the grip sn off a gun not smart enough to know it is on the inside or other parts then needing to be replace for the person to get the gun back.

[MR. GADGET]

Most interesting. At risk of getting another "You're Wrong," it seems like most of the effort is toward establishing serial numbers, not eliminating them. I'm still anti - defarb.

Correct.
Establishment of a usable SN on guns that require them. In that it may be moving them, reestablishing numbers that are legal, not able to be seen clear, damaged.
But the guns in this case don't need them, as with home built modern guns, and many other blackpowder or any not true firearm.

If there was a problem with replacing barrels, moving or removing a SN on a weapon to defarb it ATF would have already shut it down.


So if you take a Repop and replace the barrel thus removing the SN and markings..... Is that a defarb or fake or what?

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Heres another one I hope some one can help me with. I got into a bad car accident. I had guns in the car. The sheriffs took the guns I had in the car and placed them what in Cali, Is called a "Law Enforcement Hold". Meaning, now I have to submit paperwork to the DOJ proving that I am approved to get my guns back. I needed to submit Type of firearm PLUS serial number. One o the rifles they took is a Pennsylvania Flintlock, Custom made and of course has no serial number. NOR is any needed.

Even though I included a cover letter stating this. they returned my paperwork saying I need to provide a serial number for tjis rifle. Currently. I am trying to avoid the expense of a lawyer

I know most here live in one of the more sane states and probably don't have this type thing but does anyone have any advice on how to deal with these buffons?

Like several have recommended here, you need to retain an attorney because the clock is ticking and under state law in California, once a law enforcement agency has given notice that a seized firearm is available for release, if it is not released within 180 days, the law enforcement agency is authorized to destroy or otherwise dispose of that firearm. Depending on whether there is a state law that regulates serialization to apply to antique firearms or replicas thereof, an attorney should be able to provide proper guidance on completing the forms necessary to obtain the release of the firearms held, or if CDOJ refuses the release, they can bring suit on your behalf. Either you can hire a lawyer and take your chances in court with whether the judge awards you with attorney fees or not, if you don't act quickly, you may still lose the guns because you procrastinated too long.


http://www.gunlaw.com/gun-law-articl...forcement.html

[R. McAuley 3014V]

As was suspected, just one year ago California Gov. Jerry Brown signed Assembly Bill 857 into law, requiring Californians who build their own firearms to apply for a state-issued serial number. Previously, guns assembled from parts kits officially flew under the radar. No background checks were required, and no serial number had to be stamped into the finished firearm, making them effectively untraceable. Homemade weapons have long been a pastime for gun enthusiasts, but some law enforcement agencies have become concerned as they’ve started showing up more frequently at crime scenes, and this sadly includes some muzzle-loading firearms (BP revolvers in particular) because felons could legally purchase them because BP firearms are exempt from regulation by the government like modern firearms. Leave it to California to find ways to close that loophole.
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2016/07/24/jerry-brown-signs-bill-requiring-government-issued-serial-number-homemade-guns/

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/05/homemade-untraceable-assault-weapons/

[tackdriver]

Just a quick update. Yes, I was aware of the 180 day thing. Guns are 100 miles away so I hope to get this BP thing solved before I make the trip. I have not heard back from the DOJ regarding the other firearms as yet. I went to the ATF office this morning. No agents were in. I left my name and number and reason for my visit with the secretary and she said someone will call me.... anybody wanna place bets on whether I get called or not??
Ill let you know

[Ron The Old Reb]

I bet you get a call back. ATF is not the big bad bullie that a lot of people think they are. The problem is with the cops that don't know the law.

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Just a quick update. Yes, I was aware of the 180 day thing. Guns are 100 miles away so I hope to get this BP thing solved before I make the trip. I have not heard back from the DOJ regarding the other firearms as yet. I went to the ATF office this morning. No agents were in. I left my name and number and reason for my visit with the secretary and she said someone will call me.... anybody wanna place bets on whether I get called or not??
Ill let you know

Is this flintlock the same rifle you bought from Tip Curtis? If so, did Tip by any chance serialize or otherwise stamp any identification (i.e. maker, address, serial number, etc) that is on the exterior or the underside of the barrel? If so, that might suffice for identifying the maker, model, and serial number? If not, you may need to contact CDOJ and make arrangements to have a serial number added to the rifle to comply with the new state law. Just forget about getting help from ATF. The feds are not going to ring up a state agency and tell them to release your guns even if they are BP and exempt from federal law. Likely, just like they told me when I imported a BP barrel from Canada, the ATF agent will tell you to have the other agency (in this instance, CDOJ) to contact the ATF. But this still may not fully satisfy the state's new serial number requirements, and for which ATF has no jurisdiction. Remember, you are dealing with state law enforcement officials, not a federal agency. And even if you were dealing with a federal agency, ATF has no jurisdiction over any other federal agencies anymore than it has jurisdiction in this case. And again, you really need to retain an attorney on this matter because there are just too many things that can go wrong.