New guy with Enfield load quivquestion

[desmobob]

Hello everyone,

I'm not an N-SSA member, but an avid shooter and a person who appreciates the shared knowledge of specialty forums. I figured this was a good place to come with questions on a Civil War rifled musket.

I just received delivery of a new Pedersoli 3-band Enfield. It has a 1:78" rifling twist and a .577" bore. With it, I purchased some .575" diameter Minie balls (from Dixie Gun Works). I have not slugged the rifle's bore or sized the minies. They are a snug fit in the bore but load easily.

I brought the Enfield to the range today to get acquainted. We have not yet become friends. I initially tried a load of 50gr. (equivalent by volume) of Pyrodex RS Select under the minie, which was lubed with Thompson/Center Bore Butter. I did not hit the target at 50 yards. I put up a target at 25 yards and found the rifle shoots a full foot higher than point of aim. I can deal with that. But I was unable to keep shots on the target at 50 and 100 yards. When I did hit the paper, the bullets were key-holing.

I though maybe my powder charge was not enough to expand the skirt of the minie, so I gradually increased the load to 80gr. No luck. I then tried switching to a load using Triple-7 black powder substitute, which is a FFFG equivalent (the Pyrodex I used in my initial loads is a FFG equivalent). The minies were still tumbling.

I just went back to Dixie Gun Works' web site and found there were some very negative reviews of these minies...
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...oducts_id=1367 One guy mentioned the lead was too hard and another said it "wasn't hard to get them to tumble." I'm thinking I might have bought a bunch of lousy minie balls.

Can anyone recommend a good source of minies that work well in the Pedersoli 3-band Enfield? Is my starting load data reasonable? In my web searching, it seems that a lot of folks recommend a load of around 50gr of powder for good accuracy with these Enfield repros.

Thanks for any tips,
Bob

[Maillemaker]

Hi Bob,

I also had a Pedersoli 3-band Enfield; I just traded it for a Pedersoli 1859 Sharps Carbine.

However, I found the Enfield to be a good shooter. I had not found a load that was better than what I am getting out of my Euroarms Enfield with Whitacre competition barrel, though. If you watch CapNBall's YouTube video on this gun you can see he is getting fantastic groups using a heavy bullet. My Whitacre barrel (1:72 twist with progressive depth rifling) does extremely well (clover-leaf holes at 50 yards) with both the RCBS-Hodgdon (48 grains 3F Goex) and the Moose Wilkinson 577-420 (50 grains 3F Goex). I believe the Pedersoli will do better with a heavier, traditional style Minie (that is what CapNBall used). This is going to probably require more powder. So I kept my Pedersoli Enfield as a wall hanger since while I could get it to shoot well, it would take more powder and lead than my Whitacre barrel requires to do the same thing.

I never glass-bedded my Pedersoli; my Euroarms is.

The way I determine the size bullet to use is I size up in .001" increments until the bullet does not fit. I then step down to the next smallest bullet and use that. My Pedersoli 3-band and 2-band like .578 bullets.

You will find that most of us here cast our own bullets as it is simply not economically feasible to buy them in the quantities that we shoot them. Your link says those bullets are made of pure lead, and this is a necessity for any kind of expanding bullet - use hard lead and the bullet won't expand to take up the rifling.

Out of the box, every single reproduction arm I have ever bought shoots high. The Pedersoli 3-bander was no exception. Most N-SSA skirmishers install taller front sights because of this. This may limit your ability to install a bayonet unless you cut a slit in your bayonet ring to accommodate it.

None of us use Pyrodex very much as the N-SSA does not allow it.

You will have to experiment and conduct load workups to see what works for you for any given bullet. I would recommend trying a longer, heavier bullet like one of the traditional style minies. Make sure they are pure lead. Size to .001" under what won't fit. Then do load workups from 40 grains 3F to 60 grains 3F in 5-grain increments. When you find your best grouping load, you can hunt around that in 2-grain increments to see if you can fine-tune.

Also you didn't mention lube. I use 50/50 beeswax/Crisco. Lots of people swear by different lubes; I don't think it matters as much as consistency of load. You have to find the combination that works and then stick to it.

For competition, for myself personally, I expect a competition gun to shoot clover-leafs off a bench at 50 yards.

Steve

[Mike McDaniel]

Yup. The general N-SSA gouge is a pure lead Minie, .001 below bore diameter, in front of ~45 grains of 3F black powder. Forget the substitutes. Lubes are a debate.

[CAGerringer]

Bob,
When I was trying to figure out what bullet my musket liked, I bought 20 bullets each in 6 or seven different styles from a guy named Pat Kaboskey. He has a company that sells pre-made, pre-lubed, pre-sized minies in probably 50 different styles, in any size. His email address is cwbulletman@aol.com. You can call him at 262 363-4625. When you get bullets from him, you are guaranteed pure lead...which is the paramount requirement in ever getting any accuracy.
Have fun,
Charlie Gerringer
Old Dominion Dragoons

[Lou Lou Lou]

Paul Weber also supplies minies

[desmobob]

Thanks for the help, everyone.

I checked my "pure lead" minies from DGW and they are HARD and obviously an alloy. I will melt them down and cast bullets for one of my modern pistol calibers. I picked up both of the Lee molds for .577 minies and have some pure lead on the way.

As for the sights on the Pedersoli 3-band, I've read plenty of reports of them shooting high. I was very surprised that in the excellent CapNBall video on that same rifle, he made no mention of the POI being high. He even points out his point of aim on the targets and his groups are just a little bit above it. The next time I shoot the rifle, I'll try holding the front sight post at the very bottom of the rear sight's "V" and see where that puts me. And I'll start looking for a suitable piece of metal to make a sight extension with. If I'm happy enough with the way the rifle shoots, I'll search out a reliable gunsmith and have a dovetail cut for a new front sight.

I got really fiscally irresponsible today and ordered both the Pedersoli bullet sizer and bullet greaser. It's a shame they don't have a US distributor with a modern website and ordering system. That bullet greaser sure looks like a neat item. I hope it's as convenient as it looks in CapNBall's video.

Thanks again for the help; I appreciate it.

Have a happy Thanksgiving,
Bob

[Maillemaker]

I checked my "pure lead" minies from DGW and they are HARD and obviously an alloy.

If you are sure they are hard, you probably ought to let DGW know. They are a pretty good outfit and I'm sure they would not knowingly sell them if they were not pure lead. Probably some mix-up from their supplier.

As for the sights on the Pedersoli 3-band, I've read plenty of reports of them shooting high. I was very surprised that in the excellent CapNBall video on that same rifle, he made no mention of the POI being high. He even points out his point of aim on the targets and his groups are just a little bit above it. The next time I shoot the rifle, I'll try holding the front sight post at the very bottom of the rear sight's "V" and see where that puts me.

Yeah, I tried holding with the tip of the front sight down in the bottom of the V and it still shot high.

You'll notice in Capnball's vide he is shooting a 648 grain bullet. That's freaking massive. It could be that with such a massive bullet you get enough drop to bring it into the zone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3el1FGIu6s4

I got really fiscally irresponsible today and ordered both the Pedersoli bullet sizer and bullet greaser. It's a shame they don't have a US distributor with a modern website and ordering system.

I totally agree, and I've been pestering them about that. I've even offered to set up the web site for them if they will find some way to drop-ship orders as I don't have the capital to buy inventory. But they absolutely need to either get a modern distributor with a modern website that has a full product line offering or they need to do it themselves. "The" supposed Pedersoli Dealer is Flintlock's Etc, and if you go to their web site it literally says to mail in $12 for a catalog as if it was 1985 or something.

There are several Pedersoli parts I would like to buy for my Pedersoli P58 but there is simply no place to buy them.

If they'd give me a catalog and a week I could build the web site for them.

I have found that in this genre of hobby - black powder shooting - a lot of the merchants that cater to it are very behind the times in having an up-to-date web presence or any web presence at all. A lot of the "big names" in our hobby have very primitive web sites and many don't even accept credit cards. With services like PayPal and Square anyone can do it these days.

Steve

[R. McAuley 3014V]

Back in 1977 when the first Nathan Bedford Forrest skirmish was held at Union City, one of my team members who lived in Winchester flew in to Memphis and drove up to attend. Unable to bring any ammo on the flight, he bought some mines from Dixie Gun Works and sat in the motel the night before the skirmish began on Saturday, sizing and loading his ammo. He had bought a bullet starter that Dixie marketed as "indestructible" but which shattered after having driven some 20 of the minies through the sizing die with a mallet. We likewise concluded that the minies bought from Dixie were hard lead, and made the comment to Turner Kirkland about our concerns not that I now recall the outcome. They may have been cast using wheel weights which is usually a 95/5 alloy lead and antimony, so do beware that any bullets you buy already cast should be as near pure lead as you can get unless you specifically desire hard lead bullets. But you may want to invest in some sizing dies like George Gomf makes that will have 7/8 x14 threads to fit most conventional loading presses or turret press. I have some that will size in progression from .577 to .575, just to ensure that I have .576 for my Enfield and .575 for my M-1855 Rifle.

[Smosin]

I have a Pedersoli 3 band that I bought new in 2013. It shoots to point of aim at 50 yards with a 415 grain hb-swc and 45 grains of graf 3fg; it shoots to point of aim -100 yards with several different loads, including Lyman os and ns miniés at 55 grains of 3fg, and a punishing 570 grain Pritchett with 68 grains of 3fg.
The technique of aiming that straight-stocked rifle musket requires a different cheek-weld and hold than a Parker Hale 3 band with a more friendly stock drop, which I also shoot, btw, and perhaps that's why shooting too high can be easy to do.

[Smosin]

I have a Pedersoli 3 band that I bought new in 2013. It shoots to point of aim at 50 yards with a 415 grain hb-swc and 45 grains of graf 3fg; it shoots to point of aim -100 yards with several different loads, including Lyman os and ns miniés at 55 grains of 3fg, and a punishing service load of a 570 grain Pritchett with 68 grains of 3fg.
The technique of aiming that straight-stocked rifle musket requires a different cheek-weld and hold than a Parker Hale 3 band with a more friendly stock drop, which I also shoot, btw, and perhaps that's why shooting too high can be easy to do.