buidling two lemat carbines

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Kymm,

I don't think they were ever shipped. My understanding of the way things were is this:

Contracts were made for weapons at a specific price.

Weapons were delivered in Europe to the agents for the Confederacy to have shipped aboard blockade runners to the Confederacy.

Weapons contracted for were accepted by the agents in Europe, not over here. Probably a down payment made.

The inspections were made over here. Final Payment was then authorized.

Since the Confederacy rejected the Carbine based on price, I doubt they were ever shipped.

I suspect what happened was either an individual state ordered some, or private individuals ordered them and Lemat independently shipped them to the buyer. Also, it could be the Captain or sailor of a Blockade runner speculated with the weapon and put a few on board in his private stash/quarters/where ever space was available. (I know that sword blades were shipped here without hilts because they could be shoved into narrow nooks on the ship.)

How they got here is unknown. I just don't believe that they were ever ordered in quantity by the Confederacy or one of the states. Richard's cite is the best provided so far. I'll go with that for now.

[kymmwilson]

Edwin
i personaly think they where shipped as sales examples to genearate sales(and not contracted) , liking to what spencer did offering them to higher ups and officers and for sale ( this is all speculation wagon )to generate there own sales . this could have been as low as 17 and they one hundred percent survived? or there where more and this number is what made it thru compare this to other arms and surviving numbers and i think this would be a good beromiter.
this alone would have to be accepted that there where more as per a running average for use vs surviving numbers (most of the survivors display signs of hard use)
how many other guns survived 100 %
( not getting nasty boys ) trying to state a case
kymm

[Richard Hill]

It needs to be established that all the Le Mat rifles in this country arrived here between 1861 and 1865. That leaves a very large open window for arrival in later years, either as sales (doubtful) or as collectors’ curiosities. Many (I believe a great majority) of the Whitworth rifles in this country are in that category. Nobody sent significant quantities of guns to the South on speculation. All sellers demanded cash in advance, both North and South. Any individual sales would have been an exception, but few in numbers. Anyway, the speculator would have paid for the guns at the point of origin before shipment to the South.

Yes, the invoice in my book is a photocopy of the original. You will notice that the “Merrill and Lemat” cartridges were not the only types invoiced. Each specific type has a separate entry. This leads me to believe that the 2 packages were identical, to fit either gun. It could be possible that the cartridges were intended for Colt revolving rifles, mistakenly identified as “Lemat”. The .42 caliber cartridges won’t work in a Merrill, and .54 won’t work in a Le Mat. For an example, the CSA had a .54 to fit either the Mississippi or the Austrian Lorenz.

Also note on the preceding page in the Le Mat chapter that there is a picture of the 1918 edition of “Hobbies” magazine. Near the upper right corner is an illustration a Le Mat “pistol-carbine”, with the center barrel about twice the length of the revolver barrel, and no shoulder stock. Is this the “Lemat carbine”?

[kymmwilson]

Richard
I would have to agree with you grudgingly , but only if the lemats where brought in much much later, as after the war and for nearly one hundred years there would have been very little interest and no need for percussion carbines that where disputed as confederate to begin with ? true ?
i have seen that pistol carbine and it appears to be an after thought like my projects built off of a revolver.
the invoice is an anommoly?, as there is very excellent labeling happening on all of f the ammunition packaging down to individual packs of tens and twenties and very well imbossed on crates in those times i have a label for lemat and spencer .making this invoice even more peculiar.
i wished one of us could find a coupe de gra for or against, but this will probably not be forth coming soon.
so i concede! that i will never be able to give proof to the the hard pressed rebels the one and only gun that would ever so slightly have given them a better ability to give what was being given in more prolific and diversified forms some equal fire power. the rebels lost, and continue to loose.
its fun to talk about though, thanks to all with excellent and fourthright comments.

this can and should continue if something new comes up.
Richard do you have any information on the lemat carbine that might be helpful to me ,it would be greatly appreciated as info is very hard to come by such as rifling in the lower barrel, i,ve found nothing.
Kymm

[Blair]

Here is some information you all may find interesting.
A book writen by A W F Taylorson, titled, "The Revolver 1865 - 1888", deals primarily with the developement of British cartridge revolvers.

Lemat has several patents registered in England and Taylorson lised them in this book.
Pat. # 1081 / 1862 is a joint patent for the original Leamt revolvers.
Pat. # 3131 / 1868 is an extention to that original patent and for improvements in the hammer for pin - fire ingnition system.
Pat. # 3181 / 1869 is for improvements in ammunition.
Pat. #3218 / 1871 is for a loading gate.
Pat. #588 / 1877 is foe an improvement to hammer for center-fire.

These various British patent dates may help give you some idea to a time frame for a cartridge version of a Lemat.

I don't believe for a monent that the U S Government ever felt they needed to experiment with a firearm made by or for the Confederacy.
The weapons glut after the War did effect the civilian market. However, the U S Government invested a lot of money into the develpement of cartridge and cartridge firearms.
If the U S indeed does experiment with the Lemat revolver after the war I don't think these had anything to do with C S A weapones.
Blair

[kymmwilson]

thanks Blair

i dont know for sure where from, but i did read that they converted some from percusion to cartridge for use in indian wars?? maybe Richard could chime in with siome information on this ? it seems to me we should be able to find more on there use after the war than we can on there use or lack thereof during>? thanks i am actually very interested in a cartridge version of the lemat. they have a look all unto themselves and have quite the victorian gismo look.
so you mean to tell me you believe that that the union imported very expensinve arms to experiment with when they had a plethera of versions in large numbers in there laps??? doesnt mathmaticly equate.
explain how they would have came by them, if they where no in confederate hands they where in europe and a fortune was being asked. and i would dought that col Lemat would give the union a discount??

Kymm

[Blair]

Kymm,

You explained it yourself in an earlier posting.
Gun makers gave Government (s) examples of their fireams to examin and test, in hopes that it would promote future contracts.
Before the War, the National Armories of Harpers Ferry and Springfield did this before they went into production and Springfield alone after the War. Contractors had to submit pattern pieces to the Government before the contract was let. Subsiquint arms had to match those pattern pieces or the contract would be dropped.
Blair

[kymmwilson]

Blair
thanks , I'm not sure that would be able to explain the numbers, i have heard of being tried out that would usaully constute a very small number indeed. I might be wrong but it seems like Edwin or Richard was saying fifty or so(i dont know)?but a try does require a certain number to validate the tryout. if someone has this info throw us bone here.
Kymm

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Kymm,

I think you siezed upon the statement I made below as agreeing that the Yankee governtment had 50. Here is the post I made:

I doubt seriously if more than 50 were ever imported.

It was my belief that counting Federal test carbines and individual purchases, No More Than 50 were imported into this country. I never meant to say the USG tested 50 of the carbines.

[kymmwilson]

i have heard and read that the U.S. used them in trial during indian wars as converted breechloaders, i was not basing on what you had said, but rather disputing that a country over loaded with breechloaders&repeaters to the extreme would by or contimplate buying a very expensive gun , but would gladly take a gun as war booty and with minor conversion be able to convert to cartridge(the revolver ) and issue on trial as a gun with fundemental advantages at war boty costs.
can anybody show evidance of the trial gun s used at this time? i would like to see anything on these,Richard?are they conversions or of the shelf breechloaders???
some where there is something
kymm