buidling two lemat carbines

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Kymm,

First off, the picture looks like you did a fine job. If the opportunity arises, I would like to examine it in person.

Second, I like a good argument/debate. Even when I am proven wrong, I still enjoy it. I have enjoyed our exchange. I wish some of the more learned members would join in. I know that my little library is woefully inadequate to fully discuss the Lemat Carbine.

Now my turn.

I would like to have cites or references for the books. I have looked tonight in WM. Edwards, McAuleys, Dr. Murphy's book and a few minor references. The Lemat Carbine is not listed. Dr. Murphy's and Edwards book are considered some of the best, if not the best, on the subject of Confederate arms. I also Googled it and there was not a reference I could find documenting the arrival in quantity of a Lemat Carbine.

The only reference book I own that mentions the Lemat Carbine is Hill and Anthony "Confederate Longarms and Pistols". That reference states that there were 3000 pistols and carbines made. It does not distinguish between them. They state that they were delivered to agents of the Confederacy in France and England. No mention of their use or delivery on these shores. They state that only about 1500 of the first and second models were shipped to the Confederacy and approximately 100 of the baby Lemats were received. We know the pistols made it, but you can't assume the Carbines did without some more proof they arrived in the Confederacy. Until I see some sort of documentation of actual arrival on this shore, I will be a skeptic as to their use in quantity. I suspect a few may have made it, but again, not in quantity.

Show me something that shows they were inventoried into an arsenal somewhere. A shipping manifest showing arrival at a Confederate port. Anything. If your source is credible, it will reference where the information came from so you can guage its reliability.

Just because you saw it in a book doesn't make it so. Over the years, I have seen so much incorrect published information on various topics that I have begun to pay close attention to the reference materials used. The biggest farce I have seen was the "The Pocket Book of Civil War Weapons". The book was discussed on a BB posting a couple of years ago and it is still up if you want to read about it. If there are no references cited, I discount it considerably.

Give me some specific references I can go look at for myself.

The Hill/Anthony book is a great book as it includes EVERYTHING they could identify with a Confederate connection. They even include those that were mere curiousities. I suspect that they included the Lemat Carbine to be sure it was mentioned as a possible weapon of the Confederacy but made clear, they were not sure it arrived here in quantity.

How about building one of the real odd balls? The one I like best is the "Virginia Pacificator". There was only 1 or 2 of these ever made. It is a 28 caliber, 48 round repeater, with 8 magazines. It was deemed too expensive to make by the Confederacy to produce. It is a truly unique Confederate weapon and it was made on these shores.

How about the references?

[Blair]

Edwin,
I think you are correct. I believe proper documentation is, or should be, a requrirment prior to starting any project of this type.

If this were a Colt Root Revolving Carbine instead of the Lemat it would meet all of the N-SSA's requirements of numbers produced and usage/issue. All the N-SSA's requirements except the all important one of SAFETY. Safety to the shoot as well as the safety of those standing near by.
The shooter may have his off hand in a safe place, but what of the folks standing on either side of them?
For as unique as the Colt Root Revolving Carbines and Rifles are, I doubt they will ever be approved in the N-SSA and I believe the reasons are self evident. This is true of the Lemat version for the same type of firearm.

Kymmwilson,

From what I can see from the photo, you are doing a great job. I am sure you will have no problems finding buyers.
However, you should consider consumer liability in this case more so than the authenticity as the true issue.
Someone gets hurt from a firearm you have modified or built up, that person can own everthing you own.
You have to make the thing "idiot proof", you have to train them, you have to provide writen instructions before you turn the thing over to someone, and that may not even help.
Just an element you may not have concidered.
Blair

[kymmwilson]

Blair and Edwin
I would have to concede that there is no known document of the arm itself being recieved as i know of (albeit i would say there are probably others that are officiated that have no proof as well?, ( the debate is confederate use and not nssa use as it sits i bowed out of orig debate on this) i do personally consider the facts as layed out and examined with open mindedness and understanding of the prediciment of the confederacy that i dought they would turn away any high fire power arm as the lemat carbine? then we come to manufacture the numbers are in concrete upto number 112 left in original percussion(200+ converted). these are all early second models that would have (if shipped for you guys)would have made it in with the 1500 pistols recieved as nearly all production was for confedaracy excepting presentaion models(per fervant confederat Dr Lemat).i think if anything ever does serface it will be evidance from other side of pond that they where sent with pistols.
and then there is for me the reciept from the Macon county ordnance officer Capt W Mallet superintendant armoury macon county,signing reciept of invoice for carbine ammunitions for merrils and lemats carbines may 2 1863. this (in my opinion) with the conditions of the confederacy and the 17 surviving examples in the states with the use of (as u stated fifty for trials after the war refutiate ther use use in the confederacy. As
after the war nobody would import a very high priced PERCUSSION weapon when there was a flood of breachloaders for cheap!

to me its shipped or not as the gun would defently not have been rejected at shore by a desperate calvary, it is a piece of rare history and i am trying to faithfuly replicate , let me see your work mr poughy?
im very interested in the repeater you speak of Edwin and pass on any info if available ,much appreciated.
i have built two 1855 rifles with r cross functioning locks one palmetto armoury 1842 and have restored many basket cases, am looking into project to follow lemats

p.s. you can possibly see the my work later as i have offered to a friend Tony Beck to have a go of it sighting it in.
best wishes to all in the nssa,
kymm

[kymmwilson]

oops forgot books:
Lemat ,the Man the gun, by Val Forgett
confederate carbines and musketoons ,john Murray
Arming the glorius cause ,J,Wisker
lemat revolver ,doug adams
fighting men of the civil war (calvery section)

Kymm

[Richard Hill]

I've got several books on imported arms. The only one with a chapter on the Le Mat carabine is "Les Armes De La Guerre De Secession - Les Sudistes" by Didier Bianchi, which my wife and I have translated. In the Le Mat carabine section the book states that the South "categorically refused" to buy any of the rifles because of the high price demanded. The book lists no references. The chapter also says that perhaps a "fortunate few" bought one of these guns privately via blockade runner and used it.

[kymmwilson]

Now there is some information that needed to be shared that i had nevr heard ,thank you very much i nead to get that book(although my french is as good my Latin
that would explain the few hundreds or so and never any serious production was ventured.i wonder what the price had been?
one can only wonder what if?they had been cheaper and ordered a few calvary top units fully equiped with these and able to hold there own against the spencers,like at the right flank of gettysburg where the spencer troops ground the confederate calvary to stop as they tried to flank in suport of pickett, or even before spencers???
I know the pistol was priced at 35 where indeed you could get a kerr for 8
Blair
i think your right and idiot proof the gun is not. a modicum of comensense would be required to not put hand out past a fully loaded nine shot chamber while igniting other chambers,(makes me queezy thinking of what 8 44's would do to a hand at close range,ewww)but iwould suggest to any one with a percussion revolving rifle to grease&wad over the bullets thus making it nearly as safe as a union "henry"(hope i dont get beat up for this one )....................
Kymm

[Edwin Flint, 8427]

Kymm:

I must have a different copy of John Murphy's Confederate Carbines and Musketoons. Mine doesn't list the Lemat Carbine. Publication date was 1986. He is the Dr. Murphy I was referencing. With Richard's post, I think that explains why there are so few of the carbines here. There were lots of individuals that armed themselves through private funds, mainly officers. If it had been offered at a decent price, I doubt the Confederacy would have turned it down either.

Somewhere, I have some scans on the "Pacificator". If I can find the Scans, I will send them to you. Maybe you could get copies of the patent drawings from the Patent office. I suspect it will be quite the chore. If you are going back East next year, the only known example is in the Museum of the Confederacy in Richmond.

I have enjoyed this discussion.

Hate to defend a Yankee Gun, but the only safety problem with the original that I know about was that the Henry would fire before the cartridge was fully "in battery" within the chamber. Dangerous for the shooter, particularly his eyes. The other problems were a matter of inconvenience, such as loading, no forearm, underpowered cartridge, etc. Winchester finally corrected the problem with the Model 1873.

The problem with the current reproduction is that they are made in centerfire, not the original rimfire. Some folks that are not used to reloading their own ammo use rifle primers instead of pistol. The raised primers, with bad loading habits have contributed to lots of injuries. If you do it right, the chance of injuries diminishes substantially.

Another problem I was told about but not heard from any authoritative source, is that some re-enactors, in making the blanks use wads that get stuck in the barrels. You can imagine what that does with subsequent rounds. the Henry can be safely shot if you learn the basic precautions.

[kymmwilson]

The revised edition adds this as follows

CONFDERATE CARBINES & MUSKETOONS
Cavalry Small Arms Manufactured in and for the Southern Confederacy 1861-1865
by John M. Murphy, M.D. With a foreword by Norm Flayderman

This beautiful, new companion volume to "Confederate Rifles & Muskets" identifies, describes, and pictures all known and accepted types of cavalry longarms made for and used by C.S.A. forces during the Civil War. Includes exciting new chapters on the enigmatic Le Mat percussion carbines, Southern arsenal alterations of Hall's flintlock rifles to percussion carbines, and the issue of double-barrel shotguns to Confederate units--the latter never before seen in print! 8½ by 11 inches, 320 pages, profusely illustrated, hardcover with color jacket.
ISBN 1-882824-18-0
US$79.95








following taken diresctly from jsmosby,s current auction with pics of carbine excactly as mine picturd

In the arsenal of historic Confederate weapons is this extremely rare two-barrel, ten-shot, Le Mat revolving cylinder carbine. It is the only foreign-manufactured repeating shoulder arm made under contract to the Confederacy during the war. The top barrel was rifled for .42 calibre and the bottom barrel for .48 calibre. Only 17 surviving examples are known of the Le Mat carbine, ranging in serial number from 2 to 112. This one is number 60 and is the only engraved example known! (This would suggest that it was either an officer's model or intended for presentation to a CSA government official.) Other unique features of this example not found on other specimens are the spur trigger guard and clam shell patch box. Both were originally silver-washed also. The ramrod is missing, several nipples were replaced, most likely during time of use, and the cylinder doesn't revolve when cocked. This particular piece has been highlighted in the latest edition of Dr. John Murphy's acclaimed study, "Confederate Carbines & Musketoons." The weapon has also been shown in several other significant reference sources on Confederate small arms. This carbine was once owned by pioneer collector and Confederate reference book author Edward N. Simmons and still retains his inventory number "42." This carbine is truly a rare and exquisite piece of CSA history with impeccable provenance.

Item #: JSM 2097
Price On Request

Kymm

[Richard Hill]

Just looked at my copy of Dr. Murphy's book. At the end of the Le Mat carbine chapter is some notes that site references. One note already mentioned is the May 2nd, 1863 "Invoice of Stores" shipped to the Macon Armory, which among other items lists "2 Packages Cartridges for Breechloading Carbines" with "Merrills and Lemats Carbine" hand-written off to the side of the entry. The invoice page is reproduced as an illustration. The Le Mat has a .42 caliber cylinder and a .48 caliber central barrel, and the Merrill carbine is .54 caliber. Anyone who has ever shot any of the old breechloaders will know how well this will work. Quite possibly, somebody back then made a mistake in identification, but which way? For what it's worth: the chapter in Murphy's book is written by M. Clifford Young, a Le Mat collector.

Several US books state the Le Mat carbine was made under contract for the CSA. Caleb Huse's dislike of the Le Mat revolver is documented, and a French book states the CSA would not buy them due to the high price. Private purchase of a very small number still seems the most likely explaination.

[kymmwilson]

championed................
i am one hundred percent in agreement with richard excepting in my book it s a photo of said invoice and i would interpit it as crates of ammo as this is how they where shipped then ,and seperate pallet for each rifle type??the number of guns purchsaed individualy is the question ? i would reiterate this number to be in coralation to the numbers of production(pre production) of the model as all where coming to the states for anticipation of contract, or where they taken back to the ship and sent away from a nation under a siege for its very existance,its just not logical.
thank you for chimming in Richard with excellent information
oh joy for the glorious cause